Women As Pastors?

This magazine cover has stirred up a bit of controversy here in the ATL last week:

Gospel Today magazine pulled from Christian bookstores’ shelves

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Thursday, September 18, 2008

Smiling women on the cover of a slick magazine. Sold from under the counter. Must request it from store clerk.

That’s not something a buyer would typically find in a Christian bookstore. Not unless it’s one of the more than 100 Lifeway Christian Bookstores across the United States, including about six in metro Atlanta.

Gospel Today, the Fayetteville-published magazine, was pulled off the racks by the bookstores’ owner, the Southern Baptist Convention. The problem? The five smiling women on the cover are women of the cloth — church pastors. Southern Baptist polity says that’s a role reserved for men.

…Chris Turner, a spokesman for Lifeway Resources, which runs the stores for the Southern Baptist Convention, said, “It is contrary to what we believe.” It bases those beliefs on their interpretation of New Testament Scriptures.

…“We weren’t trying to pick a fight,” Hairston said. “We just did a story on an emerging trend in a lot of churches.”

My brothers at Jesus Christology and Independent Conservative have addressed this article as well. Frankly, it’s a topic that I was afraid to publicly discuss – and I mean that sincerely.

I know, I know – I’m eager to pick a fight with pulpit pimps of all persuasions, but the topic of women leading congregations is a difficult one for me to dismiss without serious thought and consideration. When I was a faithful member of the Word of Faith heresy, I listened to women preach from the pulpit – and I can’t honestly recall that they butchered the Word like so many of their male counterparts (Juanita Bynum, Medina Pullings, Paula White and their ilk aside).

I have also been spiritually guided by women (my wife, mother, grandmother, aunts, and female ministers in churches that I belonged to in the past). I can’t ignore the role that women of God have played in my life – in fact, I celebrate it and praise God for allowing me to cross paths with real Proverbs 31 (vs. 10-31) women!

That being said, I am a Reformed Christian, and I adhere to the 5 Solas in guiding me to understand the Word of God. One of the five solas (“Sola Scriptura”which is Latin for “Scripture Alone”) is the belief that the Word of God is the final authority of our Christian faith. The foundation of this blog is my heartfelt belief in Sola Scriptura, particularly how reading God’s Word for yourself will help you avoid the false teachers who butcher it for personal gain.

My allegiance to Sola Scriptura also causes me to disagree with women serving as pastors of churches. I know that statement alone will upset many women who read this blog (and pray for me as well), yet that does not negate God’s truth as I understand it. I base my belief on scripture alone, specifically that priest, overseers and other leaders within the church were to be male:

While one can dismiss these qualifications as “a few requirements under the old covenant”, the new covenent (New Testament) was equally specific:

I can dig deeper into scripture (particularly in relation to the works of the ministry and the responsibilities of church leaders), but you get my point. The usual rally cry in support of women leading churches is that Paul’s admonishment that “women should keep silent in church” (1 Corinthians 14:34-35) is simply spoken out of the cultural aspect of the times (women were considered more as property) – not in accordance with scripture itself. I’ve heard that argument first hand when the female minister who taught my New Testament Survey class made it – and at that time, I accepted it at face value.

I also know of the countless women who have aided in the spreading of the Gospel (Deborah, Ruth, the Mary’s, Priscilla, and many many others), yet scripturally these women were not church leaders (Deborah was a prophetess and a judge – not a priest, elder, overseer, etc.). Further study into the totality of scripture (from Exodus through 2 Peter) provides clarity in context.

Again, I don’t arrive at this conclusion light-hearted or flippantly. Sure there are women “Bishops” and “Prophetess'” who are playing with the Word of God for selfish gain (and because they can hoop and scream just as good as any man). There are also plenty of women who quietly head storefront church’s all across urban America – tending to the spiritual needs of a community that many male “pastors” have ignored.

I believe that children are best raised when in a home with a mom and dad, yet their are countless single mothers who have picked up the slack when some of us men couldn’t take the pressure. Likewise, lots of women pastor toil in the work of the Gospel because some of us men have decided that it wasn’t worth our attention.

But does stark reality negate God-breathed scripture?

I really want this post to stimulate mature conversation in the comment threads. I will not entertain childish insults back and forth – this subject is too important (and personal) to play with.

Pastors, Elders, friends, faithful readers, casual observers, haters, et. al. : chime in with your interpretation of scripture and tell me just how wrong (or right) I am, give me other areas of consideration, defend your positions – let’s just have a mature and lengthy dialogue once and for all.

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128 Responses to “Women As Pastors?”


  1. 1 EnochWalked September 22, 2008 at 1:18 pm

    Praise the LORD!

    Brother Speaking Truth,
    I truly believe the Holy Spirit has given me the revelation knowledge on this matter. I shared it with you, Pastor Foster, Independent Conservative, about 2 months ago. Pastor Foster agreed with me and I quote your words which I agree with 100%, “Fundamentally you’re right – women have had to assume the leadership role because of the demise of the black family – and the black community. Can we really expect women to be the CEO’s of their households (because there was no man there) or even CEO’s in the business world yet “fall back” when they get to church? Especially with the pimps and players stalking the pulpit today? I’d rather see a real woman of God lead a church than another Eddie Long or Creflo Dollar up there playing games.”

    Let’s get straight to the point: AN OUT OF ORDER BLACK FAMILY! IT STARTS AT THE HOME OR THE FAMILY! IF THE BLACK HOME/FAMILY IS OUT OF ORDER–TODAY 70%(PLUS OR MINUS) of ALL Black American households are run by women due to
    1. “Out-of-wedlock sex”…that’s too nice–the Spirit says call it what it is…Fornication and Adultery.
    2. Divorce(this was almost non-existent in our grandparents generation, people age 65 plus to 100)
    3. Black men FALLING AWAY from their position as heads
    4. This is the Worse one–Jezebel is in the House! Now, I am not calling ALL women preachers Jezebels, but Jezebel DOES EXIST! Look at King Ahab and his wife, Jezebel. Who ran the kingdom? Who fed the priests/prophets of Baal at her table–Jezebel. I do not call men who display Jezebel fruit-Jezebels, I call them Balaams-hirelings or preacher/prophet FOR HIRE!

    Bottom Line: IF THE BLACK HOME AS A WHOLE IS FATHERLESS THEN WE HAVE THE RESULT OF A BLACK CHURCH THAT IS AS WHOLE…..FATHERLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    WHO ULTIMATELY IS THE BLAME? THE PASTORS(Male and female)DID NOT PREACH THE TRUE GOSPEL of the LORD JESUS CHRIST, REPENTANCE AND HOLINESS and THE LEAVEN HAS TAKEN OVER! This is the fruit of the Prosperity Gospel, feel good churches, GOD is a GOD of LOVE but not a GOD of wrath gospel, my pastor can out preach(seduce) your favorite preacher, showing respect of persons, men building their own kingdoms, and too many other SINS/ABOMINATIONS that have been going on long before we got called into this battle!

    Keep sounding the ALARM Brother!

  2. 2 JohnCalvin September 22, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    You are absolutely right. It’s been in the last 50 to 100 years that people started rejecting Gods word for a more modern interpretation. Many will say that the restrictions laid down by God in the New Testament don’t apply anymore because they were written 2000 years ago.

    God doesn’t change. He’s the same yesterday, and today, and forever. People change, but not God nor his word. We can’t just reject the parts of Gods word that we don’t like, and still consider ourselves Christians.

  3. 3 naturalsystah September 22, 2008 at 3:31 pm

    This is an area where I’ve gone back and forth over…I’m now thinking it’s not for women to pastor, but what about preaching in general? Or how about street preaching, is it okay for women to evangelise that way, why and why not?

    Furthermore, I hear a lot about what women aren’t permitted to do, I’d love to hear more about what women are free to do.

  4. 4 EnochWalked September 22, 2008 at 3:36 pm

    Cont’d. This is my last post today brother Speaking Truth(yeah right-Smile, LOL).

    You said the most fundamental key component in your commentary: “I believe that children are best raised when in a home with a mom and dad, yet their are countless single mothers who have picked up the slack when some of us men couldn’t take the pressure.”

    I would say you are 100% right BUT I will lovingly correct this statement: We need to say…”Dad and Mom.” I make an effort to say to my little boys(4 1/2 and just turned 3), Daddy and Mommy. I not making a doctrine but making an emphasis to them!

    We got to be like Ezekiel and prophesy life to these spiritually dead dads, and rebuke and condemn deadbeat dads, missing in action dads to REPENTANCE! And show NO compassion or love to the SPERM DONORS…That is the true love of GOD…Stop making excuses for them. That’s whats missing in the Church. Tough no-nonsense Fathering. When the men repent, healing will come to the home and the church! Amen!

    Now, the HOLY SPIRIT is available to every born again child of GOD, Male or Female…with all 9 gifts of the SPIRIT. I came out of an awesome 3 day seminar on the giftings of the HOLY SPIRIT and the eventual calling out of the presbertery(set apart ones). I DO NOT question these womens’ anointings or callings. But my question is what is the fruit of their home. Who is their husband(covering)? A woman pastor or prophetess is really a mother to the Body of CHRIST…BUT she must rule BESIDE HER HUSBAND…and I am talking a flesh and blood man…Do not use the excuse that JESUS is your husband. What’s their home life like? What is the fruit of their marriage? Do they or will they SUBMIT to their husbands, no matter HOW anointed or filled with the HOLY GHOST they(women) may be? If the answer is NO, then the woman pastor HAS USURPED authority and no telling what the spiritual fruit will come out of that type of situation. I would categorized that the majority of the women pastors have USURPED authority at home(willingly or out of necessity) and brought that “spirit” to the church!

    Bottom line–when the home is right(man as the head and the wife at the husband’s side and in most homes the wife is the true backbone(Ask my wife and I witnessed this with my own mother)! Amen! A woman’s touch will keep a home from falling apart…BUT a woman of GOD IS NOT MADE TO DO A MAN of GOD’s JOB…Priest, Provider, Shepherd, Head of the HOME!

    Same thing with a Church…I have seen it done right(IT IS RARE out here!). When there is a man of GOD who is the pastor/bishop and his wife operating BESIDE HIM as a HELPMEET usually in the role as a missionary/prophetess/church mother. Just like it is done right at home, IT MUST BE DONE RIGHT AT THE HOUSE OF GOD! JESUS was not for an ALL MALE DOMINATED CHURCH…If that were the case, the SPIRIT would only have been available to only sons…But that is not the case!

    I sincerely believe and KNOW that GOD is pouring out HIS SPIRIT upon all flesh…sons and daughters. But GOD is a GOD of decency and order! ORDER is the Key!

    Last point(Smile) The Black man is turned off to the Black Churches BECAUSE of the PIMPS. Because our beloved black sisters are TARGETED, MARKETED by the PIMPS and the PIMPETTES(Church MADAMS is a better term-LOL). The preaching and teaching is MAJORITY GEARED to women’s issues, women’s needs, women of destiny, women of this and that, women of tomorrow…You see my point! Real men love JESUS! BUT Real men see through the game of the Pimps…as Michael Baisden says, “Game recognizes game!”

  5. 5 speaking truth September 22, 2008 at 4:35 pm

    EnochWalked – I’m going to have to start charging you for bandwith 🙂

    Seriously, you make some valid points, and you even quoted my reply to your email (earlier) during our initial discussion (rather, my struggle) with accepting the Word of God with no strings attached. If you remember, I also said:

    I too struggle with what the Word says vs. what I’ve seen and experienced, and I have to side with the Word (particularly in my allegiance to Sola Scriptura)

    Ultimately, despite circumstance (and knowing that God makes provision during times of turmoil), we must line up with the Word. Regarding women “co-pastors” alongside their husbands, that’s a tricky one too because “co-pastors” generally preach over the enitre congragetion and are dual-shepherds, again stretching the bounds of scripture. Let’s keep talking about it…

    naturalsystah – you make a very good point:

    …but what about preaching in general? Or how about street preaching, is it okay for women to evangelise that way, why and why not?

    We see countless evidence of women ministering throughout the Bible (in what we could equate to modern-day street preaching, evangelizing, etc.), but the Word is clear about the roles women hold within the church assembly (i.e. formal regular gathering of men and women for worship and digestion of the Word). I don’t believe this becomes a question of “what women can and can’t do” in general, just an exposition on the role of women in leadership within the church assembly.

  6. 6 Preach Preacher Preach September 22, 2008 at 5:27 pm

    What about the CME & AME. Can a women be the husband of one wife. Sola Scriputra.

  7. 7 Independent Conservative September 22, 2008 at 5:33 pm

    (ST, let me say I don’t say this comment in response to what anyone else has said. I prepared this comment seeing what you wrote and without reading other comments. Given responding to other comments may result in some sort of argumentative debate and you’ve noted you want to hear from us without it getting out of hand.)

    You said:

    The usual rally cry in support of women leading churches is that Paul’s admonishment that “women should keep silent in church” (1 Corinthians 14:34-35) is simply spoken out of the cultural aspect of the times (women were considered more as property) – not in accordance with scripture itself.

    If cultural respect and women being treated as “property” was a concern, why could Corinthian women divorce their husbands as noted in 1 Corinthians 7:13? Fact is, Gentile women in Roman lands had more “rights” than Hebrew women! A Hebrew woman could not even seek a divorce, only a Hebrew man could. It was not at all an issue of societal norms of the times, but the consistent instruction from God. Eve longs for and accepts Adam as head, the man heads his house, certain men of good report manage the house of God, 1 Timothy 3:5. Both scripture and church history agree on this matter.

    Also, scripture did not have chapter and verse numbering till men added it later. 1 Timothy 2 goes with 1 Timothy 3, that women should not claim church leadership, it is explicit. An explicit prohibition. Some claim 1 Tim 2 is just about marriage, that is not true and it’s not written as such, it’s actually more specifically addressing church affairs as a group, which is why 1 Tim 3 fits so perfectly as following statements and simply aligns with order in marriage. The order of the House of God stems directly from humanity’s beginnings. But marriage is the smaller form of the very house of God in saints assembling in mass numbers. In the home, the husband is to head in training in scripture and from that microcosm are born leaders in the house of God in saints assembled in mass numbers. Ephesians 5 is clear, that marriage and Christ’s relationship with the church are mirrors of each other, not something to view as separate. This is why scripture is so very consistent on this matter and also why groups that get out of order on this are doctrinally often sliding wrongly in other areas.

    Not until “modern” times has there been this claim that there should be a mass of women claiming church leadership, which has no mirror in the early church. I think my brother Job said it best to those who disagree when he said:


    All of this nonsense is due to the fiction that Christians today are somehow to better and outdo the Biblical record. Is it because we think that we are more holy, righteous, and pleasing to God with stronger faith? Or is it because we perceive ourselves to be more knowledgeable and advanced thanks to breakthroughs in science, psychology, politics, sociology, etc.? Of course, it is the latter. Instead of conforming ourselves to the Bible, we ignore the Bible and conform ourselves to the world.

    Now that was my fully pre-written comment. Since pasting that here, I did notice the very tail end of the prior comment asks about women being street evangelists. Certainly woman can and should share the message of Christ with unbelievers, no matter if they be male or female. There is nothing that speaks against women witnessing to unbelievers of any gender. The Samaritan women Jesus met went and told men who she met, so they too would believe, John 4. This is not at all a question of who can speak to unbelievers, any saint who encounters an unbeliever should tell them about Jesus. This is about the order for the house of God, as in already born again saints assembled and who qualifies to lead in teaching and preaching. Scripture affirms not all males qualify, but just a select few who can fulfill the tests as outlined in scripture. This is consistent with scripture and the history of saints before us.

    (Now just some additional that’s come to mind, because I don’t find much profit in prolonged back and forth over this, so I’d rather get all my thoughts out this once.)
    Some like to claim there were various conspiracies to write women out of scripture as leaders. Well then, that would mean the Holy Spirit has not kept any veracity for scripture’s integrity and our entire foundation is rendered suspect for our source of instruction. But with all the “copies of copies” that we have, this matter if overwhelmingly consistent in showing only certain men are to be church pastors/elders/bishops and teach over both women and men in assembly of saints.

    This does not mean women can never address the assembly, any lay member can with permission from the elders of the local church, but they are not to do so as assuming any position of office in authority and instruction over the assembly.

    Some cite Acts 2 in error, claiming that gives authority for women to lead. That chapter is best read in full, Peter declared that what they were doing that very moment fulfilled the prophesy of Joel. That would include women prophesying and we know even the daughters of Philip did so. But they were not elders and not teachers over men in church assembly meetings. They were not over their father who was an evangelist. If Acts 2 was to affirm women could lead churches, that would be clearly reflected in scripture, with women being placed as elders right there and at least one of Philip’s daughters would have been and elder or teacher, but it is not, no woman was.

    Jesus had ample opportunity to select women as Apostles, the 11 had opportunity to consider women in Acts 1 when being led to consider Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus) and Matthias, with Matthias being the Lord’s choice, affirmed by the drawing of lots. There was nothing but opportunity available to make women church leaders and elders, but it was not done and expressly forbidden. So I find any other instruction is not true to the gospel.

  8. 8 gcmwatch September 22, 2008 at 6:20 pm

    IST, I have personal ambivalence (like you) about women pastors, but scripturally I do not.

    Let me give a bottom line statement, then share the way the Holy Spirit has led me to deal with it.

    First I was a little put off that Teresa Hairston described the issue of women as pastors a “trend” in the church. Bad language.

    The bottom is the Word of God be true and every man a liar. There is no justification for any woman to pastor outside of a defacto scenario which you noted and which I believe God allows. We do have precedent in both old and new testament for this. By defacto I mean it is not the standard and is only allowed because someone is out of place but because God is sovereign he will use whomever in the process of causing his will to be done.

    Jesus told the pharisees that divorce was not (and never will be) God’s standard nor his intent from the beginning. Yet, he said that it was allowed because of the hardness of people’s hearts through allowance by Moses. Of course Moses was God’s chosen leader. Still Jesus agreed that divorce was valid in the cases of adultery. Again, not the standard by due to “defacto” issues, it was allowed with restrictions.

    I feel the same is applicable in the broader sense with women as pastors.

    That is not to say that in allowing this, God violates his word but simply that he is sovereign and it is HIS will not ours. That Deborah (Judges 4) was chosen as a judge (a position of authority and rule) over Isreal is one of the clearest examples I know of this defacto scenario. Deborah was not a co-judge with less governance restrictions than her male counterparts, she was the judge. Yet, she was a woman told the male captian that the victory of battle would be his to claim. She never brags about how she as a woman led Isreal to victory. Instead, she praised God for what he had done. Another particular note is that THE most decisive victory of the battle was from the hands of a woman (Jael) who personally killed the enemy leader.

    We cannot discount this astonishing event, but we also cannot say it was part of the norm, because it simply wasnt.

    Because she was the only female judge in Isreal it speaks to my assertion that this was NOT the norm for Isreal according to the will of God. Note: she was called to lead during Isreal’s THIRD major fall into apostasy. However because God “ordained” her elevation,hen Deborah (as the elect Judge of Isreal) it was accepted as the will of God.

    Having stated my “bottom line”, I cannot ignore that these women are my sisters in the faith and as such are equal to me in that respect. I cannot bring myself to disrespect their office if they walk in integrity and follow the word of the Lord. I would and have afforded them all due courtesies and respects as Pastors. I try to make that my personal principle to live by because (1)as Paul said Who am I to judge another man’s servant and (2) knowing that my wife has stood by me with integrity, knows me intimately and has embraced God’s call on my life as her own, there is not a man who could carry on my work without her keen insight into leadership based on her relationship with me.

    To me there is a distinct difference between preaching (all saints are charged to preach or “expound” the word) and pastoring which is a narrow call not given to all. A preacher is not necessarily a pastor, but a pastor is required to preach.

    I do believe that it is not God’s will that a woman usurp power over a man. It doesnt work in the home and it will not work in the church. I believe and hold fast to the creative order of gender in the OT and affirmed in the NT I also beleive that in the big picture, I would work with a woman who follows the scriptures and reject a man who perverts the word of God.

    I am not a chauvinist and Im not a compromiser. And I am not a fool either. I say let us agree to respect our sisters who are ably leading in the church and fervently challenge our lazy and mia brethren to get in their places (hello Adam where are you?) both in the house of God and in the home.

    Finally, I support the SBC for pulling the mag in their stores and not making it doctrine for all other Christian bookstores.

  9. 9 speaking truth September 22, 2008 at 6:44 pm

    preach preach preach,

    That qualification is one of the linchpins of my personal belief that pastors are to be men. When it’s clearly written like that, it’s hard to argue (on scripture alone) the contrary.

    IC & GCMWatch,

    Thanks for your succinct and well thought out statements regarding the matter. IC, I appreciate your straight-forward analysis, particularly since this subject is “old hat” over at your blog. GCMWatch, I appreciate your honest perspective from a pastor’s point of view.

  10. 10 rascoe1 September 22, 2008 at 6:50 pm

    I have had only one female pastor, my former church in Miami, and that, is a fine example of why women should not be in the pulpit. The spirit of jezebel rule and reign in that church, in all areas. A weak, passive, corrupt and immoral man and an overbearing, domineering, suspicious and controlling woman. They are both bishops. The man was ordained, then the woman, convinced that she is more spiritual than her husband, manipilated an ordination for herself. Some of the things that I have heard and seen in that church is just amazing.

    Because of the moral decay of our society and the world at large, righteousness and the reverential fear of God is not taught. The Word of God, which is clear, has been mangled to conform to a decaying world, in order to make us feel good about ourself and our sinful desires. From Genesis to the New testiment the roles of the sexes are clear. Men are to be the leaders in both the home and the church. Men are no longer taught the importance of being good husbands and how imperative the role of fatherhood is, as a result these two roles are treated with alack of respect. Women no longer see being wives and mothers as they ought to, and the cycle continues.

    As we fall further and further from the truth, we call right wrong and wrong right. As a single mother, (one 25 yr old daughter), who struggled, most of the time with only the help from a loving, merciful and forgiving God, I have many regrets. I had to be both father and mother, spiritually, financially and emotianally to my child. THAT WAS NOT GODS PLAN for me, but the result of my own sinful nature. Thanks be to God, the things that I now know to be truth, that I was never taught in my youth, I am now teaching my dauthter.

    ST my brother, the truth is the truth, and and only the truth will make us free. The women that regularly read your blog are truely women of God who knows the truth, whether it hits home or not. So brother, keep Speaking the Truth.

  11. 11 Pastor Jim September 22, 2008 at 7:22 pm

    Haven’t the time to read all the comments, but I’m sticking with Scripture. I’m with you ST.

  12. 12 Caught Thinking September 22, 2008 at 7:52 pm

    IST,

    For the sake of this irenic discussion can you define for me what you mean when you use the word “Pastor”.

    Break it down for me. I’ve come to the realization that in this age different people pour different meanings into the same words.

    What is your take on the duty or function of a pastor?

    Is it to teach the fundamentals of the faith to those that are new to faith?

    Is it to tell the good news of the gospel to those in need of it?

    Is it to preach to the poor?

    Is it rule over the lives of others?

    Maybe it’s to hold others accountable?

    Maybe you think it’s to mentor new believers to maturity?

    Or is it all about authority?

  13. 13 Independent Conservative September 22, 2008 at 7:56 pm

    Well ST, consider this. If a woman can assume the role of management of the house of God, why would we DARE as men claim a woman can’t claim management over us in our own house? Or is our house over God’s?

    Of course to claim that view would mean all scripture about women and men’s roles in the home was just noted for “social reasons” 🙄 …

  14. 14 Caught Thinking September 22, 2008 at 9:01 pm

    I’d love to hear how this discussion extends to ,um, Management of the Country…:))

  15. 15 EnochWalked September 22, 2008 at 9:32 pm

    OK Brother Speaking Truth,(I am done today…I will send you a love offering-Smile!)

    Brother Independent Conservative. I do not deny the word of GOD and NEVER WILL. But what I see(witness) and perceive(discern) and know(testify) are a COMPLETE contradiction to the scriptures forbidding women to 1.lead, 2.preach and 3. teach in the Churches. Saints, I have seen and witnessed 3 signs that confirm that the LORD is WITH HIS women pastors?(JESUS called them mothers and sisters not Pastors)(I do not know enough about the ones pictured to judge their fruit). But I KNOW enough about the ones I fellowship with, especially my spiritual mother. HE has anointed them and HE is using black women in this time and hour. The 3 SIGNS:
    1. I have seen MORE women pastors GET A PRAYER THROUGH than I have seen with male pastors. Is this not the most important thing, getting our prayers heard and answered!
    2. I have seen MORE spoken “personal prophecies” out of the mouth of women pastors and prophetesses COME TO PASS than with men of GOD. The women of GOD I know DO NOT LIE!
    3. I have seen MORE women pastors/prophetesses cast out devils than I have seen with male pastors. My own Personal Testimony: My spiritual mother cast out ALL sorts of unclean spirits that were IN ME and attacking me 10 years ago! She was the only that GOD SENT TO ME with the DISCERNMENT and ANOINTING to help get me delivered! Amen!

    Now, I know that we only see the world from our LIMITED viewpoint and understanding…BUT GOD is WITH the real deal women of GOD…What did our LORD JESUS CHRIST say HIMSELF,
    Matthew 12:48-50 KJV
    (48) But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? (49) And he stretched forth his hand toward his DISCIPLES, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! (50) FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, THE SAME IS MY BROTHER, AND SISTER, AND MOTHER.

    Based on those words….THE CASE IS CLOSED and SETTLED right there and I tell you why?

    I am at a point theologically and scripturally on this wise. Who am I to go with on sticky/controversial issues/subjects from the New Testament? THE LORD JESUS CHRIST’s words, Paul’s words, Peter’s words, or John’s words….I am going to GO WITH THE WORD–JESUS HIMSELF! Example, Baptize in the NAME of the FATHER, and of the SON, and of the HOLY GHOST…or in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST? WHEN NOT SURE…GO WITH JESUS! The Syrophenician woman is a perfect example of a woman who had FAVOR with the LORD because Her FAITH PLEASED the LORD! Her FAITH got her daughter delivered! How many of us are where we are today because of Big Momma, Grandma, Aunti, our natural mothers and our own wives and our spiritual mothers at the Church–IT WAS NOT BECAUSE of the Men! Men will forsake you but women in general will not! I repeat, Men will forsake you but women in general will stick with you to the end–Just ask JESUS! The 3 most influential spiritual people in my life to date: 1.My late flesh and blood mother and 2.big sister(my sister is my Miriam!) and my spiritual mother(a modern day Deborah) ARE the 3 women who prayed and LED me into the KINGdom!

    I AGREE wholeheartedly with GCMWatch’s commentary. Bottom line, it is a great example of PERMISSIVE WILL! But is it really permissive will? LORD THOU KNOWEST! It really is a REPROACH to US…Black men. Black Adam is missing!

    Well what are you trying to say EnochWalked? We are ever learning today BUT not coming to the knowledge of the truth. If you ask any mother(and I applaud women who turned their lives around and raised Godly families BY THEMSELVES) and I applaud you Sister Rascoe1 and your comments tell us that our sins and our flesh have created the spiritual climate and atmosphere we have today in the black home/family and the black Church! I pray that your testimony is an example to your 25 year old daughter to NOT follow that path and LEARN from your wisdom. THIS IS THE PROBLEM TODAY. This “NEW” 21st century generation in this time and hour DOES NOT learn from their father’s and mother’s sins/mistakes and REPEAT the CYCLE! That is the definition of a GENERATIONAL CURSE! It is real(Another discussion)!

    The only culture where headship confusion and male/female relationship ARE OUT of ORDER is with the Black American race and Black church. You do not see this as a major problem or even an issue in the predominately White Church circles! My parents had me very late(they were in their early 40s when they had me) AND they said things in the black family and black church were completely different before Integration and Civil Rights. The black families got RIGHTS and BACKSLID! So if the Black Family/home backslid…THE BLACK CHURCH BACKSLID! Amen! Did we black folks leave/forsake/forget GOD when us black folks left the back of the bus to get to the FRONT of the bus?????? Something to THINK ABOUT!

    I Love you brother Speaking Truth and all of you that have commented. Good night and GOD Bless! I will not apologize for being wordy because I would be lying(SMILE)!

  16. 16 Pat September 22, 2008 at 10:11 pm

    I just discussed this topic with my family today. I know the two areas of the Bible..NT-addresses a woman suffering not and then in the OT it addresses daughters prophecying. We cannot fault the bookstore for choosing how they handle their business. No, remember this is the U.S.A. freedom of speech-press.During this harsh economic time, Theresa will gain lots of money she was not going to make if it had not been for this. Yes! She and her p.r. people did a good job of getting their side out.-As the theme of the Apprentice goes..money, money, money. All that boycott foolishness also actually works for the Life bookstore as well. Remember Jesus is Lord-Philippians 3:8

  17. 17 Independent Conservative September 22, 2008 at 10:25 pm

    EnochWalked – In 1 Timothy 3, can you tell me where qualifications such as: 1. get a prayer through, 2 say something that happens, or 3 cast out a devil are listed? Why didn’t Paul tell Timothy to look for the items you list if they are what we should look for in an elder?

    Now let me graciously offend all of you “Black” proponents. I have known saints who share our skin tone, who rather than defy the Word of God and promote women as elders, went to White pastors to do the job and were welcomed as fellow saints.

    I’ll stand with those who stand on the Word and with the instructions God had Paul give to Timothy. I don’t see race in them and I don’t care if they don’t agree with racial dogma.

  18. 18 EnochWalked September 23, 2008 at 12:07 am

    Brother Independent Conservative,

    I WILL NOT TEAR DOWN Women Pastors who are doing the will of the FATHER! I ask again. Are you going to go with Paul or with JESUS? Paul is the least of the saints. He said so himself. I know you and I disagree on this. Peter(You) and Paul(Me) had disagreements about the Gentiles too, Remember? Let the LORD judge between me and thee. You cannot get rid of me Brother IC, I am still your brother in CHRIST! Amen.

    Black churches and white churches. It is a reality! I do not see an overwhelming majority of the white “christian” pastors, white “christian” evangelists from the other side of town or the heartland….coming to the inner cities or predominately black neighborhoods to convert our people. Most churches use the crutches called radio, television, and now YouTube(Smile)! If you ask me, we ARE MORE SEGREGATED in the USA today 40 years after the civil rights movement and acts being passed!

    Up here in the DC metro, the only whites I see doing outreach and “ministering” to blacks are Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, Seven Day Adventists and the Mormons! And of course, THEY ARE NOT CHRISTIANS! This is a fact! I cannot speak for Atlanta or anywhere else, but I know DC, MD, and VA!

    Until the “Jerico walls” of prejudice, stereotypes, and distrust are torn down between white and black Christians(this is hard to define today..Christian, Smile), especially in the Churches of the USA…Sunday will still be the most segregated day in America! Every major metro area from New York to Miami has experienced “white flight” when Blacks moved in and had the access.

    I am not pro-black or anti-white. I am PRO-JESUS CHRIST! I am just stating the facts. As a matter of fact, here in DC, and in Northern Virginia, and Prince George’s County MD the black churches that grew to mega status moved out of the inner city to the green pastures of the suburbs AWAY from the poor blacks! So not only do we have white christian flight from blacks but we have upper and middle class black christian flight from poor black christians. That is a direct violation of giving respect of persons(another discussion)!

    Lastly, in GOD’s perfect will you and I both know that the male man is the head and the woman is beside him as his helpmeet and equal. GOD pulled the woman from Adam’s rib to be beside him. Not from his head to dominate or usurp him and not from his feet to make the woman the man’s footstool!

    The true Holy women of GOD are in position out of NECESSITY! Because black men as a majority have fallen away! You cannot deny that! The LORD saw this time in hour prophetically in Ezekiel. HE said that HE sought for a man to stand in the gap but HE could not find one. Hear what the HOLY SPIRIT is saying, HE has raised up these holy women because our black brothers told him NO and gave excuses! Scripture Reference: Luke 14:16-24. The LORD has prepared HIS table: Salvation. And a majority of our black men choose not to come! They chose to pursue the lusts of their hearts! Until we get the black family household restored with man as the head and 1 wife…listen to what the HOLY SPIRIT is saying to the churches…we will NEVER get the black church in order! I would challenge you or anyone else, to roll up your sleeves and work with these holy women and the few good holy men of GOD out there and not work against them. Amen.

    I close with this scripture from our LORD SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, Mark 9:38-40 KJV
    (38) And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. (39) But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. (40) For he that is not against us is on our part.

    Doesn’t this scripture speak today the same spiritual principle about the real holy women of GOD out there? Something to think about and pray about.

    GOD bless you and I love you Independent Conservative in JESUS NAME!

  19. 19 Kwesi September 23, 2008 at 12:12 am

    Enoch Walked – What?!

    Your hermeneutic approach is dangerous, to say the least. If God has forbidden it, what then can make it right?

    The goal sir, is to extract from scripture what is there.

  20. 20 EnochWalked September 23, 2008 at 12:36 am

    Last thing, I promise Brother Speaking Truth!

    This is what the HOLY SPIRIT is saying to all of us who think lowly or against HIS Holy Women of GOD. And I know some of you will say this is out of context…No it is not!
    Hear what the SPIRIT is saying to the Churches! All Churches!
    Mark 14:5-6 ….And they murmured against her.
    Sounds like those who are against our mothers and sisters doing the will of the FATHER? Hmmm.
    (6) And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.
    Did y’all just hear what JESUS said…Leave my mothers and sisters ALONE! Why cause my mothers and sisters trouble?
    She(my mothers and sisters) is doing a good work for ME!

    That is the Rhema for this subject…Women Pastors. Discern those who are HIS true mothers and sisters and Leave them alone! And discern the ones who are modern day Jezebels and cry aloud and spare not! Amen.

    Good night and GOD bless each of you and I pray a special blessing for all of you in JESUS NAME!

  21. 21 lavrai September 23, 2008 at 1:28 am

    Hi. I am not going to tell you you’re wrong. I’d just like to share my experience. The pastor of the church I attend (as well as my old church) is a man, but the last remaining elder (of the ‘old school’, if you will) is a woman, so she has some authority, seeing everyone else who knows ‘how things are done’ is dead. The pastor’s wife is also a reverend and has her doctorate of divinity. There is also an assistant pastor, who is a woman. The thing is, there aren’t very many men in this church, much less very many people. The pastor is the head of the church, no doubt, but there are women in the pulpit who preach, and some of our guest speakers are women, too.

    I understand the word of GOD and live by it… but, really, do we stick to it 100% all of the time? Are all the traditions necessary for holiness and to maintain our Salvation in Jesus Christ? I am not trying to dissuade anyone from believing what they believe — we all have different traditions which I don’t believe necessarily interferes with our Salvation through Jesus Christ.

    For example, since I was sanctified I cover my hair — ALL THE TIME (except for when I’m in the office at work). Now, I know if I go into most churches or hang around with most others who call themselves Christians, I would get looks and maybe some questions.

    Are all Christian women supposed to cover their heads/hair, especially when they are praying or in the house of the LORD?

    1Cr 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.

    Does this passage go on in ensuing verses to say that men shouldn’t have long hair, and that women shouldn’t cut their hair?

    We all have a personal relationship with the LORD and I can tell you in Spirit and in truth, I know some women whom the LORD has called to teach and preach — in the pulpit and in the streets. You can take this how you want, it doesn’t matter.

    I find it disturbing, however, that some folks sound almost militant in making their points (not you, SpeakingTruth). …So if the last faithful physical place of worship you could get to only had a woman pastor/preacher, you would stay home? …Or leave before she started preaching?

    Are you committing a sin/transgression by “sitting under” a woman pastor? Will “sitting under” a woman pastor interfere with your Salvation through Jesus Christ? Yes, basically what I’m asking is, do you believe you will be condemned for “sitting under” a woman pastor? Do you believe a woman pastor is in disobedience to the LORD GOD ALMIGHT, and therefore, in danger of the lake of fire?

    I only ask these questions because Christians are called to live in Spirit and in truth and in the beauty of holiness. Do women pastors violate this calling?

  22. 22 Douglas K. Adu-Boahen September 23, 2008 at 6:35 am

    Thank you ever so much for addressing this, ST. I have a question: Is it me or do most women ministers behave, act and talk like their male counterparts?

  23. 23 speaking truth September 23, 2008 at 10:09 am

    OK – I’m just going to jump into the middle of the comments briefly:

    Caught Thinking, you said:

    What is your take on the duty or function of a pastor?

    When I say “pastor”, I’m referencing the American Heritage Dictionary’s definition: “a A Christian minister or priest having spiritual charge over a congregation or other group.”. I am also referring to the spiritual connotation of shepherding a flock, so the basis of my belief is that women taking charge of a flock is not biblical (technically). Regarding all of the functions you mentioned, every believer has the mandate of preaching the Gospel, sharing the Good News, explaining and bringing people to the Faith, etc. No one should “lord over” or “rule” over anyone (Lord knows I’ve seen that enough from men who weren’t capable), but there must be a local shepherd in each assembly. Oh, and I don’t have a problem voting for a woman for president (the right woman, I might add), or working for a company where a woman is my boss (been there, done that many times). I’m only speaking in terms of what the bible says about church leadership.

    EnochWalked – as is often the case, I’m still digesting your comments, but I wanted to make a clear point: although some of the symptoms of the problems in the black church can be attributed the decay of the black family, the issue is much broader. Paula White, Cheryl Brady, Darlene Bishop, and many other non-black women pastor churches as well, so to me it’s a broader rebellion against the Word.

    lavrai – thanks for your additional insight. You said:

    Are all Christian women supposed to cover their heads/hair, especially when they are praying or in the house of the LORD?

    1Cr 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.

    Does this passage go on in ensuing verses to say that men shouldn’t have long hair, and that women shouldn’t cut their hair?

    Intersting questions. When we look at 1 Corinthians 11:2-16, we see the full context in which Paul was speaking. In 1 Cor. 11:4, Paul was specifically speaking of Jewish custom, and acknowledging that Corinthian men were also wearing head coverings – and that he considered it a disgrace (not doctrinally, yet culturally) since a man’s uncovred head was a sign of his authority. Likewise, a woman’s covered head was a sign of her subordinate relationship to her husband. In essence (and this is my attempt at exegesis), Paul was speaking of an appearance of “role reversal” when men had their heads covered and women did not.

    Doug – as I stated in the original article, some female pastors do “hoop and holler” like their male counterpart, and it’s usually the high-profiled female pastors who are competing (from a marketing perspective) for “face time” with the Jakes’, Long’s, Bynum’s and other alpha pimps. When I have heard women preach in person, I’ve seen more deliberate teaching and step-by-step walking through the Word. Again, that was some time ago, but I don’t really want to generalize.

  24. 24 Ann Brock September 23, 2008 at 10:13 am

    I don’t have a problem with women teaching or preaching in the church but to head a church is not a woman role. Our society don’t like gender roles but God in His all knowing do therefore He chose the order.

    I believe God established the rules and the roles when HE gave Adam control over every thing. Remember when God went to the garden looking for Adam and Eve? Whom did He question concerning their sin? It was Adam not Eve even doth she was present.

    God did not ask Eve anything. God is a God of order weather we want to admit it or not. Jesus was not concerned with conforming to society (just the opposite), but he still believed it was important to appoint only men for His apostles.

    I believe that husbands are head of the family as Christ is head of the Church. This is pretty clear to me, but we should also remember that it is the husband who is to lay down his life for his family (as Christ did for the Church).

    I believe the consequences of female pastors will be devastating, and may very well lead to a sort of feminizing of the Church. In other words females are the weaker species therefore, what’s a better way for the devil to level attacks that through women.

    The enemy knows Gods plan and he also see how this thing is being played out right now. Remove all men from homes, school,(you can count the number of male principles or Supt. they are in our school systems now most of them are women)and churches. The enemy is aware that God deals with the one He’s given the authority to and that’s not woman.

  25. 25 speaking truth September 23, 2008 at 10:19 am

    Happy 19th annivesary, Ann!

  26. 26 gcmwatch September 23, 2008 at 10:20 am

    This is not addressed to anyone in particular, just some musings…

    I am thinking that arguements based solely on “woman versus man” point is irrelevant?

    Because it is an issue of the heart. If you are corrupt at heart, it doesnt matter if you are male or female, you have no business handling the Word of God or leading God’s people.

    I dont say that to negate the created order of man and woman, but how important is personal integrity in this discussion and with the Lord (or with you) since he said that he judges the heart but we judge outward (gender?) appearance?

    Also a question: How does (or does) Jeremiah 3:15 bear on this discussion?

    And finally, it is incorrect to use scripture to refute other scripture. Scripture illuminates or reveals other scriptures because there is no schism in the Word. Likewise, I dont think it wise to pit Jesus against Paul (unless Paul said it was just his thoughts) or Jesus against Peter or Peter against Paul or James against Jesus, etc. You get my point… It leads to the same error which is that one thing or person in scripture is more or less important, when it is ALL God-breathed.

  27. 27 Douglas K. Adu-Boahen September 23, 2008 at 10:47 am

    OK, thanks, ST 🙂

  28. 28 Kwesi September 23, 2008 at 11:07 am

    IST – I love the honesty of your presentation. Some would like to dismiss the cultural and historical backdrop of the main text used for issues like this. However it’s so important to remember that none of this is written directly to us. In essences we are reading someone’s mail. So we have to dig deeper, if we are to get at the truth. We must consider the history, culture, and the language of the day. The questions we should ask are, what did it mean then, what is the eternal principle and how does that eternal principle apply to us today? Here is where I have a problem with most of my brothers on this issue.

    If the eternal truth is that, God is a God of order and in His order a woman should not be in authority over a man. Then shouldn’t we hold to that always as the Jews and other cultures do?

    Here is the argument as presented by most. A woman can have authority in a house where the man is absent for whatever reason, (not so in cultures that take the authority of a man seriously. At 12 you’re the man and in authority). Fatherless-ness happens in homes of every creed and race by the way

    A woman can have authority over a man in the context of employment. Men submit to her without a problem, after all she is signing the check, right? For the record I too have been there.

    A woman can teach in the context of college or other professional learning environments. Been there too.

    A woman can share the gospel, mentor, disciple, evangelize, organize, teach our children, and of course support us with the prayer, presence and support that they are know for.

    A woman can even be (in essence) the leader of the free world. At least of the 305,186,613 citizens of the USA

    So in all these areas a women can be in authority? Yet, let’s stop the presses and call out the army if a woman is a Pastor over a congregation of 50 people.

    Either way the argument is a judgment on us. Either we are disobedient socially and culturally or we are disobedient at “church”.

    Finally, consider this. We are the church, is that correct? So should a woman not be in authority only when she is in the building that we call church? Or should a woman not be in authority over the Church (the universal body of Christ) period.

  29. 29 speaking truth September 23, 2008 at 11:09 am

    gcmwatch, you said:

    If you are corrupt at heart, it doesnt matter if you are male or female, you have no business handling the Word of God or leading God’s people.

    That is one of the reasons I wrote my thoughts in the post initially – I know what the Word says (and agree), yet what is a believer to do when there is a corrupt male pastor and a woman pastor operating in integrity?

  30. 30 EnochWalked September 23, 2008 at 11:43 am

    Praise the LORD! Brother Speaking Truth, I do not intend to dominate this conversation and I believe all of us are doing this in AGAPE love. If I do not defend the LORD’s true handmaidens, then I will have to give an account to HIM! Amen. Now, if any of you ask a true handmaiden of the LORD, they will tell you emphatically THEY NEVER WANTED TO BE A PREACHER or A PASTOR! The ones I know, TRULY WANT the MEN of GOD RESTORED and BACK IN THEIR RIGHTFUL PLACES! THEY KNOW THAT THE MAN IS THE HEAD! BUT that is NOT REALITY in our black communities! WE MUST DEAL WITH WHAT WE ARE FACING! Amen.

    I AGREE with you Lavrai. Amen. Well said. Amen, Sister!

    Kwesi: The paradox with women pastors, women in ministry. How can I explain it to you with simplicity. Hear what the SPIRIT is saying. The Pharisees condemned JESUS because HE “worked” on the Sabbath days. COMPARE this example to what Paul said was forbidden for women to do in the church. What’s the point you may ask(I know it is hard but rely on the HOLY SPIRIT, not the letter)? The SPIRIT is telling me to point out this scripture to WHY HE has called, annointed, and appointed HIS mothers and sisters in this time and hour:
    Matthew KJV 12:10-12 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. (11) And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? (12) How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

    Now if the LORD JESUS had been a “legalist”, HE would have allowed the man with the withered hand to stay in that condition until the Sabbath day was over. BUT HE did not–HE MET THE NEED. Our ministries cannot “omit the weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy, and faith!

    Now what the Pharisees condemned JESUS for healing on the Sabbath IS THE EXACT SAME “Spirit” as any of us condemning the women(JESUS’ mothers and sister) for preaching, shepherding, and saving HIS fallen sheep! IT IS MORE LAWFUL(RIGHT in JESUS’ SIGHT) to do well–TO DO HIS WILL than to be bound to the letter–and when we are bound to the letter–that my friend is legalism and bondage! Let us be very careful TO NOT ACCUSE our true holy women of GOD of doing evil! Satan cannot cast out Satan. Remember: Matthew 12:30
    He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

    Ask yourself the question: Are the real deal holy women of GOD gathering or scattering the sheep?

    Brother Speaking Truth, you mentioned Paula White, Cheryl Brady, Darlene Bishop. Who is usually the majority in their audience? The sisters! And if we did not know they were white women, we would think they were black women. GO ahead and laugh brother! LOL! White women who pastor and preach to black women(Another discussion-Smile and laugh because you know I am telling the truth. LOL)

    Sister Ann,
    What you mentioned about the removing of men from the home, school, college education, workforce, and the church, IS the FRUIT of our black men falling away from GOD!

    QUESTION to you and anyone out there who can answer it: Since the black men have fallen away from the home, raising families, school sytems, getting a college education, workforce, and the church, WHAT WOULD OUR BLACK COMMUNITIES LOOK LIKE IF OUR BLACK WOMEN(mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunties, daughters) HAD NOT TAKEN UP the sword and fight in JESUS NAME in the home, raising families by THEMSELVES, school systems, getting a college education, workforce, and the black church?

  31. 32 Independent Conservative September 23, 2008 at 1:56 pm

    My brother EnochWalked,

    I see you say a lot in that lengthy response, but you totally fail to show why it’s legitimate to use standards that fail to agree with scripture when it comes to qualifications for an elder in the church, 1 Timothy 2, 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.

    If we promote things that don’t agree with the Word of God, we’re not in agreement with the Spirit and not doing as God has instructed the church order its self. Because it is not our personal experience that makes a matter correct, but whether we are in agreement with the Word of God.

    I ask again. Are you going to go with Paul or with JESUS?

    I stand with both and neither has any record in scripture of placing women in positions of church leadership over women and men.

    Paul is the least of the saints. He said so himself.

    Considering Luke 22:24-27, I would hope we all aspire to be the least. It only again proves Paul was in agreement with Christ.

    But lets see what God had a more eminent Apostle say on this matter, see 1 Peter 5:1-7. Notice, Peter goes from speaking to elders to younger men to be subject to elders. This is clearly instruction first to older men who are elders in the church, on to younger men. Peter is keeping the chain of shepherding true to what Christ did in selection of him and other Apostles, certain elect men. Paul is the apostle given to the Gentiles, if you were Hebrew I’d tell you a more eminent Apostle was the main bearer of the gospel to you, but you’ll have to settle for getting the “least”. Because Paul gave the instructions to the Gentile churches of how to conduct themselves in a godly manner.

    You’re talking some about who will come to disciple Blacks, which anyone can do and I’ve got no problem with women telling sinners of either gender that they need Jesus, I’ve mentioned that already. Our debate and what I’m talking about are saints, Black, White or whatever race, who already are saved and who they choose to allow to shepherd over them. Do they keep with scripture and assemble with men as elders or do they seek whatever is near even if out of agreement with scripture? If saints will go across town to avoid a prosperity pimp near them, certainly they would do well to ensure when they go across town they are with elders who fill what scripture commands.

    A big question is, would YOU enter an all White assembly of saints and start to worship with them if they had things in order with male elders, or would you run to a woman who claims to be an elder because she’s Black? Is it so important to you that brown be in the pulpit in front of you, that you’d even risk being against the Word of God for it? This is not about who comes to you, but who you go to, who you claim to assemble with and the order that is maintained with scripture as the guide. Never mind what everybody else is doing.

    You claim Whites are leaving areas because of Blacks, you don’t know if the Whites in a church group don’t want you till you go meet with them yourself. And plenty of Blacks take “flight” too and it’s got nothing to do with race. I don’t live in an all Black area either and it’s got nothing to do with race. Many reading these words know they don’t live in the most “chocolate” area either. You know there are factors way beyond color that impact where people live. I doubt scold your Black finds if they move from an area that happens to be Black and they mention they could not have their children near certain potentially negative influences.

    Because black men as a majority have fallen away! You cannot deny that! The LORD saw this time in hour prophetically in Ezekiel. HE said that HE sought for a man to stand in the gap but HE could not find one.

    Than why do the women never step down once men are there with the ability to shepherd? Because it’s not about “standing in the gap”, it’s about some people claiming a “calling” never found in scripture! There ARE MEN STILL AVAILABLE to be pastors, it’s not like Black Liberation teaching Vashti McKenzie was the only person available at her spot and she certainly was not the only one running for the AME coveted titled of “bishop”. NO things are not “that bad”, there are men who are around and available. Look, if the assembly is only women, this discussion is moot, but we have women claiming leadership over BOTH men and women and they are not trying to give up their spot to a man. These assemblies of saints could interview White pastors if they wanted, or Hispanic pastors of they wanted, those women could seek others to assume their posts, but they don’t even attempt, they never say they desire to step down and let a man take the role, because it was never about “standing in the gap”, it’s all about ACTING LIKE THE WORLD.

    Again, this is not about who can cast out a devil, it’s about who can lead an assembly of saints. Those are 2 totally different topics. Mark 9:38-40 is not about church leadership, Titus 1 is. If you and others really WANTED to have men in those roles you’d seek them out, but I suspect there’s a glaze of racial partiality on your own parts that is being ignored. And never mind Whites and Hispanics, there are men who sit as ministers “under” women claiming lead elder roles over them and never is effort made to transition the woman out for scripture to be followed. And there are White women claiming to be elders too. What are you saying, you’re OK with Black women claiming to be elders, but not White women 😆 ? (I laugh, but seriously wonder what you’re saying…)

    With all the women on the cover of that magazine, I am sure those church groups they claim to be elders of had means to seek out a man if they desired to. But they did not. And those women certainly are not seeking to step down and have a man who meets scripture’s qualifications take their place.

    I love you brother, that does not mean I’ll always agree with you 🙂 .

  32. 33 Kwesi aka Caught Thinking September 23, 2008 at 2:01 pm

    Enoch Walked- Where do I start?

    I find this foundational statement for your theology troubling.

    “(I know it is hard but rely on the HOLY SPIRIT, not the letter)? The SPIRIT is telling me to point out this scripture to WHY HE has called, anointed, and appointed HIS mothers and sisters in this time and hour:”

    Once again your theological approach is DANGEROUS!

    Is it not the HOLY SPIRIT that gave us the letter as you put it?

    As ST states he holds to Sola Scriptura as do I. Sola-Scriptura is the belief that Scripture is the final and only infallible authority for the Christian in all matters of faith and practice as I recall.

    You are suggesting that we put aside what the Bible says and embrace your recounting of what the “spirit” is telling you. That is exactly how so many are able to mislead the body with doctrines that are not based in Scripture, because “the Holy Ghost said…”

    Listen the Holy Spirit will not contradict His Word. So you may consider testing what you think you hear in the light of Scripture.

    Thus far in this conversation I have not taken a position. I love theology in community and so i really enjoy hearing what others are thinking. I like ST struggle with this an many other doctrines presented as truth. My experience in life and in church stands in opposition to what I actually see practiced. In others words, I have questions, see my response as Caught Thinking. (I keep forgetting to log in)

    Where we are totally in disagreement is in your approach to truth. You seem to think that what you say the Spirit is saying holds more authority that what we know the Spirit has said in the Word. That is just plain wrong! It bears the making of Tabloid theology.

    I’m not trying to offend you, just speaking truth.

    Oh I almost forgot. Every Black Family is not broken! Every white family is not whole! Every two parent household is not functional either. And a single parent household is not always dis functional.

    I understand that you are trying to make an argument for the two wills of God but once again you lose me with your methodology.

  33. 35 EnochWalked September 23, 2008 at 2:27 pm

    The HOLY GHOST says I got to share this revelation.

    The women pastors–the real deal ones ARE “ESTHER PASTORS”!

    Let’s look at the Book of Esther as a shadow/symbolism to us Christians in America. This book was canonized and does not even mention the name of GOD or LORD in it!

    Queen Esther(Church, women ministers, the weaker vessel) was chosen and raised up by King Ahasuerus(CHRIST) through A BEAUTY PAGEANT to be IN PLACE to save the Jews(souls) from Haaman(Satan, a type of anti-christ). JESUS Chose HIS Church(Esthers and Mordecais) and the vessels HE wants in it! Queen Esther(Church, women ministers, the weaker vessel) interceeded for her people. Hear what the SPIRIT is saying:
    According to Esther 4:11 All the king’s servants, and the people of the king’s provinces, do know, that whosoever, whether man or woman(….MAN or WOMAN…Hmmm!…), shall come unto the king into the inner court, who is not called, there is one law of his to put him to death, except such to whom the king shall hold out the golden sceptre, that he may live: but I have not been called to come in unto the king these thirty days.

    She was by LAW forbidden to come into the KING’s court without HIS summons on the PENALTY of DEATH. BUT Esther went–same with our holy mothers and sisters–they went to the KING because SOULS/FAMILIES/COMMUNITIES WERE ETERNALLY LOST and NOW, future souls are in ETERNAL JEOPARDY! Esther was willing to PERISH and LAY HER LIFE on the LINE for Her People(Souls)! Esther 4:16 Go, gather together all the Jews(Christians) that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens(OTHER WOMEN PASTORS) will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.

    Can we say the same thing about our black men or any men in America today? How many are willing to DIE for the CAUSE?

    But the King(CHRIST) gave Esther favour! HALLELUJAH!

    Here is the understanding! Same spiritual principle…Women are forbidden according to Paul…I forbid a women to ____________(fill in the blank) Is GOD willing for souls to be eternally lost because HE is bound by Paul to not let women preach or pastor his lost sheep(Souls that are at STAKE)? GOD forbid!

    Remember, since the fall of Adam…GOD has loosed Haaman(Satan) to declare a decree to destroy ALL SOULS eternally! That’s why GOD raised up the Church(Mordecai’s, and Esthers) to WAR! Ministry is a CALL TO SPIRITUAL ARMS! I did not see this one until just now…Hear what the HOLY GHOST is saying to the Churches in this time and hour:

    Esther 8:3-6 And Esther spake yet again before the king, and fell down at his feet, and besought him with tears to put away the mischief of Haman the Agagite, and his device that he had devised against the Jews. (4) Then the king held out the golden sceptre toward Esther. So Esther arose, and stood before the king, (5) And said, If it please the king, and if I have found favour in his sight, and the thing seem right before the king, and I be pleasing in his eyes, let it be written to reverse the letters devised by Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, which he wrote to destroy the Jews which are in all the king’s provinces: (6) For how can I endure to see the evil that shall come unto my people? or how can I endure to see the destruction of my kindred?

    This is what these holy women who are Esther pastors(let me coin that one now before somebody goes an writes a book-LOL!) doing before the KING right now! Let’s fight the good fight of faith with them(the real ones)!

    THIS HOW THE HOLY GHOST IS MOVING BY THE SPIRIT IN THIS TIME IN HOUR:Esther 8:11
    Wherein the king granted the Jews which were in every city to gather themselves together, and to stand for their life, to destroy, to slay, and to cause to perish, all the power of the people and province that would assault them, both little ones and women, and to take the spoil of them for a prey,

    Do YOU ALL SEE in times of LIFE OR DEATH/WAR…GOD commissions EVERYBODY!

    The LORD’s mothers and sisters are “SPIRITUAL ESTHER’S” that HE HAS RAISED UP to SAVE MUCH LIFE–SOULS!

    Last one, what were the spiritual and natural conditions of the Jews(Church in America) that GOD had to use a Beauty Queen to save HIS people? The Jews WERE IN CAPTIVITY due to THEIR APOSTASY! Our families, homes, black men and white men, black and white women, our sons and daughter…for crying out loud, our churches(black and white)…OUR WHOLE NATION IS UNDER SPIRITUAL CAPTIVITY! At EVERY LEVEL…WE HAVE FALLEN INTO APOSTASY…From our families(black and white), fatherless christian children(at home and at the Churches) our Christian marriages in the USA have fallen(Record divorce rates), Christians committing and supporting Abortion, and you got black pastors publically endorsing Obama as a whole …..The USA is NO LONGER A CHRISTIAN NATION! I REPEAT IT AGAIN…THE USA IS NO LONGER A CHRISTIAN NATION! (The prophet in me has to tell it like it is! I cannot sugarcoat it!)

    I beseech each of you in JESUS NAME…HEAR what the SPIRIT is saying to the Churches!

    I praise GOD for this revelation knowledge and I give HIM ALL THE GLORY!…Seriously…I could not think of this stuff if I wanted to! GOD just gives this stuff to me! This AIN’T my FLESH! If I don’t tell you…your blood will be on my hands! Amen!

    For those of you who can’t handle or digest this MEAT(milk days are over): I beseech you to go in prayer and do what 1 John 4:1 says:

    Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    If I am lying, then I am an anti-christ! That plain and simple! Put it to the test!

    I love each of you! I am not here to sow discord or pronounce a doctrine. I am here to edify and encourage each of you: Male or Female, Black or White, Jew or Gentile.
    Galatians 3:26-29
    (26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    (27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    (28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    (29) And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    GOD bless each of you and may you stay strong in the Army of the LORD and if we never meet in this life, I pray we meet in the next!

  34. 36 gcmwatch September 23, 2008 at 3:01 pm

    Just a note of personal experience. I have never been under the leadership of a woman pastor or bishop. And (without being condescending or arrogant) I would not be.

    I have visited a good sampling of churches run by women and can honestly say I felt mostly uncomfortable. That is because as a man I saw the men of the church (whether by choice or by intent) relegated to almost subservient roles.

    At one church where the woman (wife) was the apostle and the husband was the bishop it was particularly uncomfortable. He was passive and even sat the entire service in the rear of the church while she was a “lioness” of sorts. It just made me feel weird.

    Then I have been to a church run by a woman and there was a normal balance of men-women participation in the life of the church and leadership including the woman’s husband.

    Another time a woman pastor visited my church and spoke a specific word to me that was sound prophecy. I dont think it was because she was a woman or a pastor, but simply because God used her to speak to me his intent.

    So I cannot based on my personal experience say all women pastors have a proverbial jezebel spirit, nor can I say that all women pastors are in their rightful place.

    While confusion, mismanagement and sin is just as evident in some male-led churches, perhaps it is this type of confusion is the very reason why we cling to what the Word says and let it be our final word on the subject.

  35. 37 Independent Conservative September 23, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    EnochWalked, YOU are working so hard to try and make you’re case, you’re citing scripture that does not endorse your view at all, way out of context. (I mean you’re showing signs of desperation with the Esther move.) Because you’ve got no scripture to support what you’re saying. Now you’re trying to find any case where a woman was over anything. Do you want to claim the Queen of Sheba is proof too? You’ve made a great case for a woman to run for President, but not at all a case for a woman to claim a shepherd’s role over men and women in the body of Christ as an elder.

    Brother, can you find us a single OT verse where a woman was high priest or any priest? That’s the kind of proof you’d need and is not.

    Galatians 3:26-29, Yes we all are one in Christ, that does not mean we ignore instruction about who should be an elder. Since we’re one in Christ, should we eliminate all gender specific scripture and claim two men can marry? You’re unknowingly making a case for groups you would never support!

    EnochWalked, just because it’s a leadership post and it’s in the Bible, it does not give you license to stitch names and figures onto them and claim it’s wholly applicable to the church. The Bible is clear, that women are not to be in the role of church elder or teaching over an assembly of women and men. The texts are clear.

    Question: “Women pastors / preachers? What does the Bible say about women in ministry?”

  36. 38 Pat September 23, 2008 at 3:47 pm

    EnochWalked, you said
    “That is the Rhema for this subject…Women Pastors. Discern those who are HIS true mothers and sisters and Leave them alone”..Just curious-how many paternal children do you have?

  37. 39 Jeanie Franklin September 23, 2008 at 3:52 pm

    Why can’t we accept that God Has the LAST SAY in all of this rather than adding on to this? Women are not to be elders or pastors lording over men. I thought God’s Word has the final authority anyway.

  38. 40 EnochWalked September 23, 2008 at 4:10 pm

    Brother Speaking Truth,
    I hear the HOLY GHOST say share this one from our brother Paul. Last nugget till tomorrow, I promise(Smile)!

    Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

    The HOLY SPIRIT is saying to us men and women who do not agree with HIS true real deal, mothers and sisters in ministry. Do not tear them down! HELP THESE WOMEN which labour with me(EnochWalked) in the gospel…and with the Clements(GCMWatch, Speaking Truth), and with other my fellowlabourers(male and female), who names are in the book of life. Amen!

    And Kudos to you GCMWatch!

    And Kwesi, WHO gives final authority in this time and hour? A set of canonized scriptures that all us got from the Roman Catholic Church or the HOLY GHOST?

    I DO NOT REJECT you brother Kwesi or Independent Conservative or anyone else who disagrees with me. I truly believe women in ministry is parallel to the argument the council of Jerusalem had about how to handle the Gentile converts…whether they were to keep the law of Moses, circumcision, ordinances, holy days, sabbaths vs. Paul’s way of converting them without circumcision, ordinances, holy days, and sabbaths! This is where we are! Amen.

    Gentiles were forbidden to even come into contact with a Jew until Independent Conservative…oops, I mean Peter got the revelation! It’s a JOKE! LIGHTEN UP! SMILE! LAUGH! WE ARE ONE FAMILY!
    I guess you will have to get a rise Peter kill and eat type of vision to see the revelation! Please do not be offended.

  39. 41 Independent Conservative September 23, 2008 at 5:19 pm

    EnochWalked – The man who stood in Peter’s face was the one who wrote what you now stand in opposition to.
    Jeanie Franklin in few words said all that really needed to be said on this matter. We’ve all got the Bible, we all see the words on the page, but hearts of men are keeping us from just accepting it as the truth. Just as men can’t ever know the joy of birthing a child, women simply are not to be church elders. Or as one woman once mentioned, it’s the forbidden fruit for a woman today.

    I mean I look at scripture like Luke 14:12-14 and wrestle with it myself. With myself regarding, the poor, the crippled, the lame and the blind. Sure I might give to them, but I can’t say I’ve forsaken my own friends for a dinner at my house and only had over the poor, the crippled, the lame and the blind. I’m not sure how many of us ever have. But I can’t say when I see Jesus that I never went to that extent because I never saw somebody else have a dinner at their own table with such people as a group minus any of their own friends. I’m not talking about setting up a kitchen on the side to feed such people, but actually having them inside your own house at your own table for the same meal you would have given your very best friends. We’re too worried people we don’t know my rob us or something of that sort. But I admit my failure on the matter. And Lord willing one day I’ll be better, I certainly hope to be, because today I’m rather weak.

    I have at times looked to many a woman as a church elder. And just like ST, when I was at Club New Birth, there was a woman as head minister over the ministry I was involved with there. But despite all the “experience” with women in such roles, it does not make the “experience” a biblical one and does not mean it was in full agreement with God. I’ve been in all Black inner city churches where a woman was a pastor or head pastor and I can say with certainty in every single solitary case THE WOMAN WAS NOT CLAIMING THE ROLE OF PASTOR BECAUSE OF ANY LACK OF MEN IN THE AREA. It was only because those women felt they were “called” to the role, despite no scripture supporting them. And so one day I had to admit, it’s just not biblical, despite whatever interaction I’ve had in the past.

    Some claim they’ve heard great sermons from women. Without a doubt, nobody is saying a woman has some lack of understanding of the scriptures. So I’m sure many a woman can rightly divide scripture, but it does not mean they are to assume roles God has said no to in His Word. His Son is perfect, God in flesh and while on earth in flesh, never did he appoint a woman as shepherd. When the Holy Spirit called men like Paul and Barnabas, Acts 13:2, never did He call a woman to that role of service either. EnochWalked, you asked if I follow Christ, I respond, to the letter as best I can brother, every jot, including seeing only a very small group of select men as shepherd, just as He does. Because God’s Word and His Spirit always agree.

  40. 42 Kwesi aka Caught Thinking September 23, 2008 at 6:14 pm

    Enochwalked – you asked

    “And Kwesi, WHO gives final authority in this time and hour? A set of canonized scriptures that all us got from the Roman Catholic Church or the HOLY GHOST?”

    God exactly!

    The Scripture implicitly and explicitly speaks of its sufficiency. 2 Timothy 3: 14 – 17

    Psalms 119
    Acts 17:10
    Deut 4:2
    Rev 22:18-19
    Deut 18:20-22
    2 Cor. 12:12
    Matt 15: 2-6

    Again you can not pit God against the word of God. You can not rely on what people report as a word from God as truth because it is not verified.

    We will have to agree to disagree here because we have no unity on the standard of Truth. Your approach to truth depends on what “your Spirit” is saying to you and frankly it’s not in line with the Bible.

  41. 43 Brian Foulks September 23, 2008 at 7:53 pm

    Kwesi, I have to agree with you. Enoch you can not pit God agains his word. If your supposed Holy Ghost knowledge is not laced in the scripture it makes it no more valid than a dog speaking to me.

    Now I am not in agreement with women pastoring but as far as teaching the word I have no problem.

    Now I tend to believe that the statement that Paul made was a cultural statement but there is a thin line embedded in that as well.

    Like ST I wrestle with this on a daily basis.

    I pose a question to ponder:
    If women as to truley be silent in church then why are they allowed to sing but not teach or preach.

    I also pose the thought that the mere fact that a person can teach automatically equate to them being in authority.

  42. 44 speaking truth September 23, 2008 at 8:40 pm

    Brian, it’s about time you weighed in on this. You said:

    Now I am not in agreement with women pastoring but as far as teaching the word I have no problem.

    If women as to truley be silent in church then why are they allowed to sing but not teach or preach.

    I also pose the thought that the mere fact that a person can teach automatically equate to them being in authority.

    As I mentioned to Caught Thinking aka Kwesi, I believe that a pastor is in effect a shepherd of the assembly – the person who has scriptural authority (notice I said “scriptural”, not dictator-like dominance), and is ultimately accountable to God for the care of His flock at that assembly. Teaching, preaching, singing, prophesying, etc. aside, a man is supposed to ultimately take responsibility (as in the home).

    EnochWalked, not to “pile on” brother, but I too have side with Kwesi regarding the sufficiency of Scripture – and it’s continual confirmation from Genesis to Revelation. Also, maybe I’m missing it, but I don’t believe anyone is “attacking God’s handmaidens”, particularly if we use scripture in context to debate the validity of female leadership of the assembly. We all know that many women pastors are “doing what they have to do”, but I believe that we are all speaking in general terms.

    All in all, we can disagree without being disagreeable – and I appreciate everyone’s perspective and insight, particularly in light of the Word of God.

  43. 45 EnochWalked September 23, 2008 at 8:53 pm

    Brothers and Sisters,
    Here me with all sincerity. The real deal women of GOD KNOW their position. They KNOW they are NOT the heads! The women(my spiritual mother is one of them) I know have said when the men of GOD get in place…they will gladly step back! Christianity in the USA is in a CRISIS! I am not trying to scare anybody or give you doom and gloom–but SOMETHING is wrong with our Christianity in the USA. The least of these problems are women pastors! Amen. Can I get a witness?

    I asked the Question: Who has the final authority? The Scriptures or the HOLY GHOST? The Church in Acts: The only writ they had was the Law of Moses, and the prophets! The Apostles did not have the book of Acts to Revelation in front of them. They did not have Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They had the indwelling WORD of GOD abiding in them and upon them! They were filled with the HOLY GHOST! They(male and female) had seen and witnessed the REVELATION HIMSELF in the flesh and in a Glorified Body–The LORD JESUS CHRIST with nail prints, scars, and everything! And remember the Vatican has volumes of books that are SEALED and PURPOSELY KEPT AWAY FROM US!

    Now NONE of us in the USA(male or female) are walking anywhere close to the 1st Church in Acts! NONE of us are seeing holy angels saying…HE’s not here! HE is risen! None of us have seen the angels in the clouds say, “Oh ye men of Galilee why do you stand there gazing in the clouds! This same JESUS you saw ascend into heaven shall come down from heaven in like manner(paraphrase from memory)!”
    My spiritual mother sees the holy angels and hears the audible voice of the HOLY GHOST! There are men of GOD with this same type of anointing but they are VERY VERY few. I am pressing daily, taking up my cross daily in to the LORD because I know one day I will take her place. She is a widow and has no natural sons. I am her spiritual son. She is almost near 70 and I am 37 now and I have my hands full keeping my wife pleased and raising 2 little boys(For the person that asked the question and not to boast-and ZERO out of wedlock kids!) I will eventually take over as senior pastor at the appointed time(I AIN’T READY to war in the spirit realm like she does!)

    Let me give you just one testimony I have witnessed under her ministry. She prophesied to me 1st Sunday October 2000 that I would be married within 2 years! I had no girlfriend, nothing in the picture! The LORD directed me and took me away from the dating scene, boyfriend/girlfriend culture for almost 2 years(December 1999 to October 2001). My future wife’s sister called out of the blue and left a message with my sister for me to call. I had no idea who the person was at the other end of the number! SIDENOTE: I had prophesied to my wife to be, Valentines Day 1999 that she was my wife! She was not ready and SHE THOUGHT I WAS A RELIGIOUS NUT(Laugh, cause some of y’all think the same about me too! It’s OK! I am not offended)right after she had finished Hampton University in 1998. From 1999 to 2001, the LORD had sealed my wife and drove EVERY potential male suitor away from her! Her sister told her to give up and marry that crazy light-skinned preacher(my sons are light-skinned…we are making a comeback! It’s just a joke Saints, lighten up!) Well my wife said Yes to marrying me December 31, 2001 and we were married October 5, 2002–EXACTLY 2 YEARS TO THE DATE!

    We ARE NOT living in Jerusalem, Judea, Ephesus, Corinth, Galatia, or any of those New Testament provinces…WE ARE HERE, YEAR 2008 in the United States of America, Mystery Babylon! WE NEED TO HEAR THE HOLY GHOST for ourselves! I am a Word of GOD man through and through but WE DO NOT HAVE PAUL, PETER, Moses, Elijah with us today to SET THINGS IN ORDER. WE are the ones that GOD has appointed at this time and hour!

    I rely on the HOLY GHOST to teach me all truth and to spiritually discern 1. HIS Word, and 2. HIS will DAILY! We only have each other and WE HAVE THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY GHOST!

    I prophesy to each of you the day and hour is coming that the only reference you will be able to rely upon will be THE HOLY GHOST and that’s confirmed by the MASTER’s Words!
    You will not have access to Bibles, Commentaries, Concordances, tapes, CDs, internet, each other, Church service, the pastor or the bishop….only the HOLY GHOST! This question is to everybody: Have you received the gift of the HOLY GHOST since you first believed? Get Ready Saints and be filled with the HOLY GHOST because the STORM IS COMING!

    Finally, I fully know who the head of the Church is and that men are suppose to be the head of the home and the Churches…BUT let’s face reality…WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH WHAT WE HAVE IN FRONT OF US! So instead of fighting against me(SMILE, Who am I? A Nobody trying to reach somebody for CHRIST) the real mothers and sisters of the LORD and each other. Let’s LABOUR with them and the few good men out there! Amen. We will not go anywhere divided–Satan knows this and he has got the Churches in the USA TOTALLY DIVIDED! BUT GOD has a remnant out there of holy men and women of GOD that will cry aloud and spare not! Amen!

    I challenge each of you to look at the criteria that THE LORD JESUS is going to judge the Church. Matthew 25:31-46 31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:(32)And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:(33)And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. (34)Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (35)For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    (*****This means BOTH spiritually and naturally, food, drink, and shelter*****)
    (36)Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    (****Spiritually and naturally****)
    (37)Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? (38)When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? (39)Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? (40)And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (42)For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: (43)I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. (44)Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? (45)Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. (46)And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Now if we want to be STRICT LEGALIST INTERPRETERS here and say the “Brethren” only apply to Males–LORD HAVE MERCY? THE LORD is talking to HIS PEOPLE…the CHURCH…Male and Female, Jew/Gentile, Black/White, ALL NATIONS(DenomiNATIONS)!

    I am at peace with each of you and I love you in JESUS NAME!
    Have a blessed night! This is my LAST and FINAL POST on this subject. GOD bless!

  44. 46 Independent Conservative September 23, 2008 at 9:04 pm

    EnochWalked, I have to mention that Kwesi is correct to say this to you:

    Your approach to truth depends on what “your Spirit” is saying to you and frankly it’s not in line with the Bible.

    He’s also right when he mentions your approach leads to grave error and it’s why the Roman Catholics exists. Because that group refuses to hold to the authority of scripture, that being the Bible of 66 books. It was not given to us by the Roman Catholics. Brother, you have much study to do, because it seems someone has been giving you misinformation, which causes you to distrust the source you should be looking to the most.

    Who gave us the scriptures?

    And by the way, we don’t worship on Sundays because of anything Roman Catholics decreed, which can be discussed later, but for now it is of paramount importance that you understand the history and authority of scripture. What the Lord has allowed into your hands in the form of the Bible is something many saints died over in opposition to Roman Catholicism.

    I think all discussion over who should be an elder needs to cease, so we can discuss how scripture got here and why it is the final authority when we’re looking for an answer regarding Christian doctrine.

    Another thing brother EnochWalked, the red letters in the Bible don’t hold more weight than other letters, all scripture is to be taken on equal weight. All is God breathed, as Pastor Foster/GCMW mentioned.

    There are some critical aspects of the faith you proclaim, that you have to get up to speed on my brother.

  45. 47 Pat September 23, 2008 at 9:27 pm

    Enochwalked-Praise God the mere fact you are on this blog confirms you desire truth so keep on coming back-No, I am not related to SpeakingTruth. There is a desire in you to seek truth that’s good.The B-I-B-L-E yes that’s the book for me I stand alone on the word of God the B-I-B-L-E . God Bless you and one day like the dude on YouTube that did the 5,000 Bic Pen you will keep seeking—finding-TRUTH!!!!!!

  46. 48 Brian Foulks September 23, 2008 at 10:19 pm

    Pardon my bad typing skills but I meant to say does not automatically equate to authority.

    Brother, I agree that the man should ultimately take responsiblity.

    Truth be told I went to a Lutheran seminary and it was common to meet women pastors who were just as sound doctrinally as men. Matter of fact I even went to one otheir services. And once you pose the question to them for the most part they all responded that men were not stepping up to the plate to lead all of these churches. There are vacant churches all over the United States looking for pastors.

    So though I disagree it is so understandable.

    ST or anyone for that matter can we honestly and biblically say that it is a sin for women to pastor? Or do we say so becasue really there is no biblical precendent for it?

  47. 49 Independent Conservative September 23, 2008 at 10:47 pm

    The authority of scripture is really a more pressing issue, but Brian Foulks. Scripture does affirm that trying to make women leaders over women and men is not the gospel of the Lord Jesus.

    1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (New American Standard Bible)

    34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

    35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

    The issues being addressed were activity in the church assembly and the statement was not based on societal norms of the period, but a command for the church to remain in agreement with the Law in how women conduct themselves in the assembly of saints. Also please read my prior comment, because there are misnomers about the people Paul addressed, they were not treating women as “property” as some claim.

  48. 50 Kyle September 24, 2008 at 4:11 am

    EnochWalked,

    I will give you credit where credit is due. You have attempted to not only defend Arminianism but also Women Pastors.

    Are you sure you don’t contribute to TBN? LOL!

    Kyle

  49. 51 Tithing & Stewardship September 24, 2008 at 8:55 am

    I pretty much stand with ST on this issue, but want to bring up another point. Lifeway is hypocritical. You cannot put books of women pastors on your shelves, and display Paula White magazine covers, and have all the other female pastoral materials; and not be hypocritical when you take off a magazine that highlights, “women pastors”. I think lifeway has constitutional rights that they are entitled to, so there is nothing wrong with their ability to make that decision; but i wanted to state that they are hypocritical. If they want to make a stand, then they should make a stand. IMHO

    – Jared Bartholomew

  50. 52 speaking truth September 24, 2008 at 9:29 am

    Jared,

    I agree 100% about Lifeway’s hypocrisy – particularly in light of the shelves and shelves pf products from heretics and apostates (men or women) who line their stores. I mean, TD Jakes, Joel Olsteen, Myles Munroe et al.

    In this case however, I used the article as a “jump off point” to express my allegiance to scripture on this particular matter.

  51. 53 Brian Foulks September 24, 2008 at 10:11 am

    I see another great point has been opened here which I think is also worth looking at as Jared has said.

    Is this really a scriptural problem with Lifeway or is it a deeper meaning from the core. The truth of the matter is that whether you are a Christian bookstore or not the need for the mighty dollar speaks volumes.

  52. 54 Jeanie Franklin September 24, 2008 at 10:14 am

    God does not contradict His Word. It stands!!!!! And for all eternity! The men that wrote the 66 books of the Bible were inspired for the Holy Spirit of God for us. I am just saying that if God says women are not to be elders or pastors lording over men,He means that! We tend to act like spoiled children wanting our own way. His way is always best and He doesn’t have to give us an explanation for it but He did. So why do we have to rationalize and add on to what He says we are not to do? God’s Word is final and I am satisfied with that.

  53. 55 Brian Foulks September 24, 2008 at 10:22 am

    I agree with your points that they were not saying that woman were property but were actually being biblical in their stance. But my point is where does the bible equate authority with teaching one the scriptures. I am not saying as a pastro would shephard but i am talking as one that listens to antoehr that has more wisdom and information.

    I hold to the thought that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 was wrote in the indicative mood and thus ultimatley was addressing the women of Corinth. If we are going to fundamentally apply these scripture then women should not speak at all and men should cover their head when they pray.

    I am just not convinced scripturally that women can not teach in church.I can understand the pastoring part but the teaching I am not to sure of.

  54. 56 Brian Foulks September 24, 2008 at 10:25 am

    IC,

    I was addressing you brother and please pardon my typing again. I need to start proof reading.

  55. 57 speaking truth September 24, 2008 at 10:27 am

    am just not convinced scripturally that women can not teach in church.I can understand the pastoring part but the teaching I am not to sure of.

    I can see your point, Brian, and that is where I’ve been in prayer (and reading the Word) about. Even in the most staunch Reformed churches, I still see women teach Sunday School and children’s church – that’s why I specifically went back to the “pastoring” role vs. all other roles within the assembly (although I’ve never seen women Elders in the Reformed churches I’ve visited either – I suppose because of their role in maintaining accountability for the leadership).

  56. 59 Independent Conservative September 24, 2008 at 10:34 am

    Regarding Lifeway’s stand, they are permissive of some heresies, yes. But hypocritical? I can’t say I’m finding confirmation of that. They pulled one heresy while leaving others in the open, true. But I don’t see where they’ve shown “hypocrisy” on standing firmly against women who claim to be pastors. On their site I do see the heresies of TD Jakes for sale, but nothing from Paula White. So unless I see evidence of true hypocrisy on their stance, they are staying consistent. Honestly, based on how they judge, they are staying consistent in regards to the heresies they stand firmly against versus the heresies they’ve continued to in error turn a blind eye towards.

    But to me, if they REALLY feel the magazine they pulled from their shelves is anti-biblical, why even have it behind the counter still available for purchase? Why not dump every copy they purchased and take the loss? Or return them to the publisher if that is allowed under their reseller agreement?

  57. 60 Brian Foulks September 24, 2008 at 10:34 am

    ST,
    I notice that a few minutes ago when I went back to the topic.

  58. 61 Independent Conservative September 24, 2008 at 11:00 am

    Brian,

    I agree with your points that they were not saying that woman were property but were actually being biblical in their stance. But my point is where does the bible equate authority with teaching one the scriptures. I am not saying as a pastro would shephard but i am talking as one that listens to antoehr that has more wisdom and information.

    Have you read that other comment I mentioned was part of my response to you yet? I know a lot has been said here, but you’re pretty much jumping in mid-stream and not seeming to have read some things already noted. We are talking about those who shepherd over an assembly in roles of elders and teachers over the assembly of women and men in mass, not private counsel.

    I hold to the thought that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 was wrote in the indicative mood and thus ultimatley was addressing the women of Corinth. If we are going to fundamentally apply these scripture then women should not speak at all and men should cover their head when they pray.

    Why is 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 treated as some “mood” clause, while 1 Corinthians 7:12-15 is always given the full weight of apostolic authority and applied today when women ask a pastor if they can be done with a husband who is unsaved and does not want them? Neither of those scriptures claims it was about customs, so I don’t claim it’s custom. Either apostolic authority is to be respected or we’ve got much of a Bible to toss, because we can claim much of it was about “moods”. Homosexuals claim most everything about relationships was all about “moods” 🙄 .Why could churches before Women’s Liberation Movements clearly understand this AND THEY LIVED CLOSER TO THE TIMES OF THESE PEOPLE THAN US, SO THEY HAD MUCH CLEARER KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WAS BEING SAID BASED ON ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF THE TIMES WITHOUT SPECULATION. But today with the world claiming women should be pastors, the church claims well now 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is about “moods”, I find that to be unfounded and baseless.

    You have to take the letters in full and not in part, women COULD speak to the assembly of saints if permitted to do so by elders, as noted in 1 Corinthians 11 and clearly there in verse 16 it is noted that the head covering matter was a custom that was not common throughout the churches of God.

    Women can address the assembly if allowed, but not from the position of assuming roles of elders or teachers over women and men. This is what any lay member can do, address the assembly about a matter if allowed to do so. Women can teach from the position of teacher women and children, just not assume the role of teacher in the assembly over groups with men. Men are the heads of households and MUST be trained and guided by certain select men. If a man has a question he thinks a woman can answer, if he seeks her for private counsel, there is no issue with that. If a woman sees a man in error and speaks with him privately about the matter, there is no issue with that either.

    I personally recommend when women address an elder about an error in the elder’s teaching, that the woman take their husband or if unmarried their father along, so there is no doubt the woman has respect for the elder and so she has a witness and so there is no effort to belittle her based on gender. If she shows she’s coming with the full approval of the man who looks after her I think she’ll be better received. Because then she’s showing it’s already been discussed in the home before speaking to the elder about his error.

  59. 62 Independent Conservative September 24, 2008 at 11:11 am

    OK, I’ve shown plenty of scriptures where it is identified that women should not be claiming roles of elders and teachers over men in the church, but can you who disagree show me scripture where women were placed as elders or teachers over groups with men IN THE CHURCH?

    Because in all the radical changes and breaking with traditions that came with grace, I’m sure if women could have been elders and teachers over groups with men, Jesus would have done it and the Apostles would have affirmed it. Why are the changes on other matters so clear to some of you, yet you waffle on this issue?

    If I am in error in anyone’s eyes for standing consistent with how Jesus and the Apostles selected those who should be preaching and teaching over groups that include men, I’ll keep that error.

  60. 63 lionelwoods7 September 24, 2008 at 1:16 pm

    Hey IC,

    Jesus also only chose Jews, so should Jews only lead churches?

  61. 64 Tithing & Stewardship September 24, 2008 at 1:38 pm

    I got the info about Paula White being sold on that magazine from this cnn article. http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/09/23/martin.hairston/index.html

  62. 65 Tithing & Stewardship September 24, 2008 at 1:52 pm

    IC,
    If you go on gospel today’s website. you will see a flash animation that will show a magazine cover with “pastor Paula White” on a magazine cover. Not unless Pastor was photoshopped in there. and not unless the sbc didn’t show that magazine either, then i would say that the sbc is hypocritical.

    -Jared

  63. 67 Independent Conservative September 24, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    lionelwoods7, I was awaiting such a response. And I ask you, given the Apostles and evangelists selected elders over churches and they selected Gentiles, what woman did they select to be an elder at what church?

    You who disagree with me on this matter, you’ve got many savvy questions and such, but you see where scripture speaks explicitly about men being in certain roles yet you come with all your various reasons why we should not act based solely on the words on the page.

    Where is your scripture that details the qualifications for a WOMAN elder, given 1 Timothy 3 in regards to elders is speaking about men?

  64. 68 Brian Foulks September 24, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    IC,

    I understand what you are saying and I agree but when it comes to a women standing before a congregation and just teaching a message from Romans 1 or any other scripture where is that error.

    One again I am not talking about being a shepherd just plain teaching.

  65. 69 Independent Conservative September 24, 2008 at 2:58 pm

    Tithing & Stewardship, so they don’t carry White’s books, they didn’t openly display this current magazine issue featuring women as “pastors”, but sometime in the past, years ago, Paula White was on that magazine’s cover and they did not pull it. Given they usually don’t carry such material, I’m willing to say they either missed one or decided after letting it slide in the past that they’d not allow it again. To make a credible claim of “hypocrisy” in their current actions, you’d have to show where right now they are selling materials of this sort in some form. I mean if they pulled the mag, but sell a book that is titled “why women should be pastors” then you’ve got a good claim of hypocrisy. Or if the person who called for the magazine to be pulled hangs out with Paula White or supports Paula White in private, then you’ve got a credible claim of hypocrisy. But if they missed in the past and now have decided to tighten up on the matter and do so across the board, good for them, although they have not gone far enough.

    Gospel Today magazine features all manner of heretics on their COVER. Really if Lifeway wants to stand on scripture, they need to stop selling that magazine totally and of course stop selling a lot of the mess they’re selling. They’ve got leaven big time, but I still have to reserve from using the “hypocrite” label. (With Palin running and many in the SBC backing McCain, now would be the perfect time to sell that magazine with it’s current cover. Not that this magazine and Palin are related, but in the minds of many it’s related and in terms of votes might only help McCain.)

    But folks who are coming to the defense of “Gospel Today” are really running to the defense of a proponent of all manner of heresy.

    What’s really sad, is the Lifeway will sell next month’s issue of Gospel Today if a male heretic is on the cover. And what manner of heresy by Rick Warren will they ever refuse to sell?

  66. 70 Independent Conservative September 24, 2008 at 4:19 pm

    Brian,

    IC,

    I understand what you are saying and I agree but when it comes to a women standing before a congregation and just teaching a message from Romans 1 or any other scripture where is that error.

    One again I am not talking about being a shepherd just plain teaching.

    Please tell me why 1 Timothy 2:9-15 is so complicated for you?

    Does anyone feel any male elder is in sin to say “I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet”? Why is the method Jesus used of picking certain men and Paul used of picking certain men and women not being allowed to either teach or exercise authority over a man such a problem for people who say they will do exactly as scripture says to the letter?

  67. 71 speaking truth September 24, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    IC, you said:

    Does anyone feel any male elder is in sin to say “I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet”?

    I won’t dare assume to speak for anyone else here, so I’ll answer that specifically on my knowledge of what the Word says: No, that elder is not in sin.

    I finally got around to taking a closer look at 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 via a bible lexicon (since my internal question was whether or not a woman could preach/teach within the assembly via small group meetings and bible study with men and women, but not from a “pulpit” to the assembly as the role of a pastor). I learned that the phrase “to speak” (in Corin. 14:34) is translated from the Greek word “laleo”, which means to “preach, speak, say after, utter, talk or tell”. The same version of the word “laleo” is used in 1 Corin. 14:35 as well when Paul says “to speak”.

    I’m not a pastor (except of my wife and children) but that’s my simple understanding. Again, at the end of the day, I side with scripture because I too believe that it is the deliberately breathed Word of God (meaning that every word and phrase used in the bible is there for a specific reason and can’t be discounted or shuttered).

    The purpose of the post was to get a perspective on the subject from other bible-readers (which I am) and religious scholars (which I am not).

    I’ll say this – folks are certainly talking about it…

  68. 72 Brian Foulks September 24, 2008 at 7:23 pm

    IC,

    Here in lies the tension for me as it relates to what you are saying. Paul does declare that “I” do not suffer women teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. This is the same Paul who made the statement that it is good that man not marry ( 1 Cor. 7:1-26).

    Paul is not making commandment about marriage he is offering spritual wisdom. I believe that he has offers his same spiritual wisdom as it relates to the church and women preaching.

    Paul did not employ his usual term for ‘the normal
    “exercise of authority” (exousia). He chose an unusual word
    (authenteo) that could carry negative connotations such as
    ‘to usurp or misappropriate authority’ or ‘to domineer.'(Towner) The
    unusual term probably signifies an unusual situation.Seemly place signified that this was not the norm of the what Paul was speaking upon.But he was dealing with an ocassion of women trying to take authority that was not given to them by leadership.

    If there is error in what I am saying then I stand to be corrected. And to answer your your last question I do not think it is sin for an elder to “I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.”

    At the end of day brother it is a continual search to make sure we are doing exactly as scripture says to the letter. Because we do not want to be guilty of the very same thing we excuse others of that they may sincerly be doing in error.

  69. 73 Independent Conservative September 24, 2008 at 9:46 pm

    Brian,

    Here in lies the tension for me as it relates to what you are saying. Paul does declare that “I” do not suffer women teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. This is the same Paul who made the statement that it is good that man not marry ( 1 Cor. 7:1-26).

    Paul is not making commandment about marriage he is offering spritual wisdom. I believe that he has offers his same spiritual wisdom as it relates to the church and women preaching.

    Again, take the whole letter and not parts. Yes he speaks about staying single and goes on to speak about why the saints in Corinth should marry, which you know is right there in 1 Corinthians 7:2. Most of 1 Corinthians 7 is about marriage, which is why married people and even Christians who give counsel to couples about to marry or already married reference it so much. Now if Paul said he does not permit anyone to marry, you’d have comparable scripture, but he does say he does not permit women to preach and teach over men. I’ve already address his use of “I” is valid under his apostolic office in my earlier comment. You’ve got zero to affirm women should teach over an assembly of men, but you question what was done by the apostles who were imitators of Christ. I say, if God wanted women to teach over men we’d have it in scripture, but instead we have an explicit prohibition against such.

    Paul did not employ his usual term for ‘the normal
    “exercise of authority” (exousia). He chose an unusual word
    (authenteo) that could carry negative connotations such as
    ‘to usurp or misappropriate authority’ or ‘to domineer.’(Towner) The
    unusual term probably signifies an unusual situation.Seemly place signified that this was not the norm of the what Paul was speaking upon.But he was dealing with an ocassion of women trying to take authority that was not given to them by leadership.

    No Brian, he’s speaking in the broadest terms possible, to let Timothy know in 1 Timothy 2 he never lets any women assume the role and continues in the very next written words (1 Timothy 3) to detail how men are to be in the roles of elders. Given he’s already refuted women as teachers and authorities over men, for you to claim he was not making the statement from apostolic office employs a reading of the text that adds words (and even an entire scenario) that are not there. If Paul’s “I” does not carry apostolic office in chapter 2, you’d have to be consistent and say chapter 3 forward is just Paul writing an op-ed piece. But Paul let’s Timothy know the letter carries the full weight of his office in 1 Timothy 3:15 and the words apply to conduct in the church as a whole.

    Twice God has Paul affirm women should not be teaching or preaching over men, 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14, but you’ve configured mild opposition for every statement made. Paul, when sending men to teach, not to simply carry a letter, but engage in full teaching over a church, he always sent men, Apollos, Timothy, Titus, consistent in word that women should not teach over men and deed in only sending men to teach over groups of saints of women and men. This is what the more eminent Apostles did too, which is detailed in Acts. And the Chief Shepherd Christ did it in sending the 12 and added another man when Judas had to be replaced. (Keep in mind, Paul was a teacher and apostle too, 1 Timothy 2:7 and 2 Timothy 1:11.) Even when Paul has Timothy address false teachers he speaks to Timothy about men, 1 Timothy 1:3. And the same to Titus, Titus 1:10-11. It was explicitly established that no women teach over men, none. The only time Paul uses the term woman near the word teach is regarding forbidding it, or women teaching other women, Titus 2:3-5. Never is it spoken, that a woman teach over men and it was never appointed either, only forbidden. When Paul speaks about Timothy passing what he’s learned on to others, to teach, he speaks again about passing it to men, 2 Timothy 2:2.

    Even in John’s letter TO A WOMAN, he speaks of rejecting false teaching men, 2 John 1:10-11. Even John understands the teachers over women and men are to be male. And of course only certain select men.

    You know it’s not a sin for an elder to proclaim “I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet”, so you’re really left with no excuse.

  70. 74 Brian Foulks September 25, 2008 at 7:37 am

    IC,

    “Women can address the assembly if allowed, but not from the position of assuming roles of elders or teachers over women and men. This is what any lay member can do, address the assembly about a matter if allowed to do so.”

    You have clearly said here that women can address the assembly if allowed but not from the role or office of a teacher. This is what I have been saying the whole time but you have disagreed with me. Now maybe you intent or defeiniton of address is different than what I am saying or you just made a mistake.

    As far as proclaiming that it is not a sin for elder to make the statement you propose, I also do not think that it is a sin to make a statement for a women to “address within the assembly”.Truthfully I am not totally convinced one way or the other. I have been searching this out forthe last 3 years. You have brought up some goods points that I can agree with. I tend to sway more with what I have shared but I can definitely be wrong.

    At the end of the day I am challenged by your words more than I have ever been but not totally convince you are right. I maybe be wrong in my understanding of this scripture but may God enlighten me the more to the truth. It has been a challenge and I am sure we will do this again. You have given me much to think about. (Proverbs 27:17)

  71. 75 Golda September 25, 2008 at 9:11 am

    If women are not allowed to teach men in the church,can they teach men in schools and colleges? Can women in higher position in jobs order men?

    Read the following and understand that women can do any ministry , if called by God.

    http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2007/09/30/women
    -in-ministry-and-female-spiritual-authority/
    http://godswordtowomen.org/studies/resources/onlinebooks/gwtw.htm

  72. 76 Golda September 25, 2008 at 9:18 am

    [[Jesus also only chose Jews, so should Jews only lead churches?]]

    Yes. Only Jews with black hair !!

  73. 77 Golda September 25, 2008 at 9:29 am

    I do not agree with everything in the following site. Anyway it is interesting to read the following.

    http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/TwelveWomenApostlesofJesus.html

    [[You know it’s not a sin for an elder to proclaim “I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet”, so you’re really left with no excuse.]]

    What arrogance!

  74. 78 EnochWalked September 25, 2008 at 11:04 am

    Praise the LORD!
    Brother Speaking Truth, I know I said I was done on this subject so I repent to you and ask for forgiveness.

    I have been in prayer concerning this subject. Brother
    Brian Foulks, you asked the question/concern: We do not have “PRECEDENCE” with women in ministry and as pastors! Exactly, that’s why we must SEEK GOD on these type of issues!

    My brother LionelWoods7 asked an awesome question? Since JESUS only chose Jews, are Jews the only ones to lead the Church?

    Well the Church has been OVERWHELMINGLY GENTILE since Acts until the fulness of the Gentiles is COME! Amen.
    Well since the inception of the Church, the only men chosen in the Scriptures to be apostles, elders, and pastors were men.

    Here is another revelation concerning women in ministry and it really has been coming to the forefront in the past 20/30 years and really strong the past 15 years.

    I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the LORD has anointed and filled BOTH men and women with the HOLY GHOST and with power since the beginning of Acts. I hope everybody agrees with this? Yes!

    Now, why did the Church start with non-religious Jews(common men and women, fishermen, publicans, former prostitutes-Mary of Magdalene) and not the Temple People(Pharisees and saduccees). The Religious order in short was bound to the world and the Talmud(religious traditions of men passed down generation to generation), not the Tanak! They were all show but had NO POWER and NO FAVOR with GOD! Now they were in their proper places to fulfill the scriptures but GOD forsaw and foreknew that the Religious order was going to reject HIM and HIS SON and turn to follow other gods. Really, they had been provoking the LORD with unbelief and stiff-neckedness since the beginning with Moses all the way to David to the kingdom being torn in two to the captivities to being brought back to the land and awaiting the Messiah!

    When we look at the book of Acts, we see the Religious Order
    viciously fighting and persecuting and MURDERING the non-traditional Jewish converts of JESUS! Now, I am not going to label any of you as EXTREME as the Pharisees/Sanhedrin were in attempting to stop the 1st Church! But have any of you really, really, really SOUGHT the LORD concerning women pastors, women in ministry? Be honest! Two things the SPIRIT told me to remind everybody of:
    1. The gifts and “CALLINGS” of GOD are without repentance!

    2nd example: Remember the wise counsel of the pharisee Gamaliel
    Acts 5:34-39 KJV (34)Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee(Elder), named Gamaliel(Grover W. Stephens, Jr AKA EnochWalked), a doctor of the law(working on it), had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles(women pastors) forth a little space(***watch and pray***); (35) And said unto them, Ye men of Israel(***Christians, especially my brother Independent Conservative, I still love you brother***), take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men(***Women***). (36) For before these days rose up Theudas(a Jezebel), boasting himself(herself) to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him(her), were scattered, and brought to nought. (37) After this man rose up Judas(another Jezebel) of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people(souls) after him(her): he(she) also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him(her), were dispersed. (38) And now I say unto you, Refrain(***you do not have to fellowship with these women pastors***) from these men(DISCERN the REAL Holy Women of GOD), and let them(***the true handmaidens of the LORD, I told Y’all earlier, Leave them alone***) alone: for if(There goes that word again-IF) this counsel(***Plan***) or this work be of men(***flesh and NOT the HOLY SPIRIT***), it will come to nought:(***that’s what some of you wish, Why? are you provoked to jealousy?***) (39) But if it be of God(****Hmmm****), ye cannot overthrow it(***Did you hear that?****); lest haply ye be found even to fight against God(****Be careful that any of you are not Saul before his conversion***).

    Now, this is addressed to the the Men/Males of the Faith! Do you think the LORD is using women pastors/women leaders to 1. Shame us for being out of place, MIA, because men are not willing to love not our lives unto the death 2. Provoke us Men to jealousy(same way HE provoked Israel to jealousy over the Church) 3. Finally, tell us men we need to repent and get our acts together!

    Now, you can stick to 1 Corinthians 14:3 and 1 Timothy 2:12
    (********the LORD’s real deal handmaidens WILL NEVER USURP AUTHORITY from MEN****The ones that do are out of order and WORSE CASE, they have become JEZEBELS!**********)
    Each of us has a free will to choose which way we want to go! I cannot change your mind–ONLY GOD can do that!

    Final Summary:
    Brian Foulks you said ” And once you pose the question to them for the most part they all responded that men were not stepping up to the plate to lead all of these churches. There are vacant churches all over the United States looking for pastors. ” That my friend is the ANSWER, Whether WE BELIEVE IT, ACCEPT IT, or NOT–IT IS THE TRUTH!
    The HOLY GHOST has anointed and raised up these women because Men/Males have fallen away from 1. The Home 2. Soceity and 3. The Church!

    Males/Men in America, Black,White, Hispanic, Asian(?)…The majority of our Males are in FULL BLOWN APOSTASY! They have rejected GOD and HIS SON, and they have went after other gods!

    Where are the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of our Males on Saturdays and Sundays? We got Sports Idolatry 7 days a week 24 hours a day! This is fall now, At the football games(College-Saturdays and NFL-Sundays, Monday Night Football, Thursday Night Football, ESPN), at the Sports Bars, at the tailgates, at their buddies house for beers and watch the Skins’ game(It is a RELIGION AND A CULT UP HERE in the DC METRO-Redskins Nation!), in a few more days, Hunting season: deer season, rabbit, turkey, all types of wild game
    Winter(NFL playoffs, Superbowl, etc. etc. etc.), NBA/NCAA basketball, etc. etc. etc.
    Spring and Summer…at the Golf Course, at the CarWash(Black men will wash and shine their cars as if they are MARRIED to the car!), Gone fishin’, gone boatin’, gone drinking, AND if the men happen to single and straight and worse case married(adulters)…they ARE NEGLECTING THEIR responsiblities and chasing the strange seductive women described in Proverbs 5. Don’t y’all know the way to cause a man’s downfall is with women(not talking about you saved sisters!) Now these are the extracurricular passions of most american born males. NOTICE: I did not list their NORMAL duties, work, get a paycheck, run a business, run a company, love a wife, raise their kids, cook dinner, do yard chores….And men want a 1 hour Church Service TO GET IN AND GET OUT and GO ON ABOUT THEIR HAPPY LIVES! Now tell me, WHERE does a GOD fit in their schedule IF HE DOES?

    Men have always had distractions BUT not like we have today in the USA! This is the MOST DISTRACTED generation of ALL TIME! COME LORD JESUS COME QUICKLY! We have ALL fallen brothers and sisters and come short of the glory of GOD!
    ************************************************************
    Now ask each of you to sincerely read my comments thoroughly and answer EACH QUESTION before you jump to conclusions/stick to your traditons/reject what the SPIRIT has led me to share with you? Amen.

    GOD bless and Keep on Speaking Truth Brother!

  75. 79 EnochWalked September 25, 2008 at 11:58 am

    Now some of you are wondering? Why is this guy fighting for the women of faith? I will tell you why. For those of you who remember back in our teenage years, when somebody talked about your momma or said “Your Momma! or put down your sister” THOSE WERE FIGHTING WORDS! I do not fight with fists anymore and never ever have fought with guns or knives! BUT TODAY, I fight the good fight of faith with the Sword of the Spirit! I have walked with these handmaidens as well as bondservants in the HOLY GHOST! I attempt in all I do to show no respect of persons! But when any of us condemn something that I know is the will and work of GOD through the HOLY GHOST–I cannot sit back and let anyone tear down HIS Body!

    That’s why I ADMONISH each of you TO DISCERN the women(JESUS’ mothers and sisters) that the LORD is with and work with them, pray for them, encourage them…NOT AGAINST THEM! And if you cannot will yourself to do that, LEAVE THEM ALONE! LEAVE THE REAL WOMEN OF GOD ALONE!

    Some of these Chosen Women are Co-Pastors, Co-Shepherds with their Husbands…BUT that’s about 20 to 25% of our black charismatic pentecostal churches(I can’t speak for the traditonal male oriented male only ministries). The majority of these women are divorced or widowed and they are SPIRITUAL SINGLE PARENTS trying to break a SPIRITUAAL generational curse! DID YOU ALL JUST HEAR WHAT THE HOLY GHOST JUST SAID? These mothers and sisters of the LORD are spiritual single parents trying to break a spiritual generational curse! And some of them are breaking spiritual and natural generational curses!****Now, I WANT TO MAKE as A POINT OF CLARIFICATION…the overwhelming majority of the women pastors I know personally sit under the covering of a MALE bishop or MALE apostle! (That’s in the circle of faith that I have been associated with the past 9 years, from DC/MD/VA to NC to GA to FL)

    What is the spiritual generational curse….One prominent one is a fatherless homes, society, and churches…You want a scripture reference to back this up, Well here it is:1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, YET HAVE YE NOT MANY FATHERS…That is speaking to this generation, RIGHT NOW!
    Who are the ten thousand instructors….Denominations, mega churches, mega conferences, mega this, mega that, men of destiny conference, women of virture, singles, married couples conference, Christian bookstores galore, TBN, The Church Channel, The Word Network, BaalTV…oops I meant godTV(I refuse to capitalize this one for putting out the likes of one Todd Bentley!)…GO AHEAD and LAUGH because WE KNOW IT IS TRUE! Maybe we should be WEEPING????????
    The Church in Acts DID NOT HAVE ALL THESE FLESHLY WORKS like we got going on in the Mystery Babylon…oops I meant the USA! WAKE UP MY PEOPLE! I got my salvation wake up call in 1997 and I got a REPENTANCE WAKE UP CALL in 1999 and a more severe Wake Up Call in 2006! GOD IS NOT PLEASED with the OVERALL SPIRITUAL CONDITION of the Churches in the USA! The Church is the world and the world is in the Church! Plain and Simple!

    That is the best way I can put it! IF and a BIG IF, the men had been in position…these women would not be at the forefront!

    Now I will fully admit that there are some spiritual Beyonces…(LOL, Bynum, White, Meyer, Pullins, any many many more) out there(LOL, because you know it is true) that have USURPED the authority that belongs to men–PLEASE uncover them, rebuke them and call them out…BUT the women of GOD who are not laboring for fame or fortune in the thousands of storefronts, home churches, all across this nation…PLEASE DO NOT HINDER THEM! THE LORD JESUS said HIMSELF,
    Luke 6:43-44
    For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. (44) For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

    Ye shall know them by their fruit! And that applies to whether it is a male or female! GOD bless!

  76. 80 EnochWalked September 25, 2008 at 2:51 pm

    Brother Speaking Truth,

    Here is a link from Bible.com. The co-founder is a woman pastor. It’s titled “What Does the Bible Say…About Women in Minsistry?
    http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=141

  77. 81 Independent Conservative September 25, 2008 at 5:08 pm

    Brian,

    This is what I have been saying the whole time but you have disagreed with me. Now maybe you intent or defeiniton of address is different than what I am saying or you just made a mistake.

    No, I don’t think we agree at all. Because the trail of comments clearly notes you repeatedly advocating women teaching over men. And you’ve taken views of various scripture, that I totally disagree with.

    …but not totally convince you are right.

    Well you know it’s not about me at all. It’s about what the Lord has commanded and far as I see it, only certain men can teach or exercise authority over a man, as the scriptures say.

    I think you and I are closer in perspective than some others that disagree with me though, because you do understand that women are not to be elders over men. My own wife can’t exercise authority over me, but some feel a woman can exercise authority over someone else’s husband, that’s totally backwards logic. But I see teaching the same, given the scriptures speak to both.

    Golda, we’re talking about the house of God here, not the environment of the money changers (business), or the environment of the publicans (politics) or other secular places. We’re not talking about who can exercise authority in the affairs of man, but the affairs of God. You can be President for all I care and if your platform was sound I’d vote for you myself and advocate for you on my own blog. In fact, if you’re running for President, let me know more details about your platform, because currently I don’t plan to vote for anyone else. And Golda, this is a discussion, not a link swap. Please speak a little more yourself, from scripture, instead of offering us someone else’s opinion.

  78. 82 speaking truth September 25, 2008 at 5:29 pm

    Golda,

    I have to echo my brother IC – this is a discussion. Sharing links to illustrate a point are fine, but if you take a particular position then please feel free to clearly state it and defend it with scripture primarily (or at least attempt to defend it with scripture). We have all dug through (and some of us are still digging through) the Word in participating in this discussion so we want to make sure that everyone’s time and efforts are respected.

  79. 83 Brian Foulks September 25, 2008 at 5:38 pm

    IC,

    Please explain to me what you mean by “Women can address the assembly if allowed.”

  80. 84 Brian Foulks September 25, 2008 at 5:43 pm

    You also make a valid point that brings a lot of clarity whe you say,”My own wife can’t exercise authority over me, but some feel a woman can exercise authority over someone else’s husband, that’s totally backwards logic. But I see teaching the same, given the scriptures speak to both.”

    That is a dome rocker right there, brother.

  81. 85 Independent Conservative September 25, 2008 at 10:37 pm

    Hey Brian,

    Please explain to me what you mean by “Women can address the assembly if allowed.”

    That’s exactly the same as you or I if not an elder or teacher in the assembly. Any lay member can address the assembly if allowed. This is why both women and men are in the choir 🙂 . Lay members may also speak to the assembly, but lay members are not the ones who teach and preach. Lay members might pray or offer words for edification, exhortation and consolation (prophesy). All lay members in time should have learned enough to be able to teach to others, older men teaching younger men and older women teaching younger women as noted in Titus 2 and 1 Timothy 5:1-2. Apart from teaching, it could even involve a woman offering some consultation to a man. That’s all more informal than when in assembly. At the assembly meetings the teachers and elders do the teaching and preaching. Outside of that the older saints instruct the younger. That gets into what I mentioned in near the end of this prior comment.

  82. 86 James September 26, 2008 at 2:23 am

    Darn, this posting really got them started.

    I’m with you. I don’t agree with female “pastors” on the basis of the items you stated. As far as evangelizing, that I can understand based on my understanding of scripture.

    It’s too late to make a full post, but just so you know, I’m with you SpeakingTruth.

  83. 87 Golda September 26, 2008 at 8:38 am

    [[My own wife can’t exercise authority over me,]]

    That is arrogance, imo. If she does ,do you slap her???

    Even husbands cannot exercise authority over their wives. Command for the husbands is to love their wife as Christ loved and died for the church.
    The one and only person who wants to exercise authority and control humans is satan.

    [[ but some feel a woman can exercise authority over someone else’s husband, that’s totally backwards logic. ]]

    That is why I ask, how do you tolerate women giving orders to men in the secular world? The wife may be the boss of the husband in the world. Is that ok for you?

    In the church, pastors and elders are supposed to serve, not to exercise authority over the congregation. So any male or female called by God can do the job.

  84. 88 speaking truth September 26, 2008 at 9:38 am

    [[My own wife can’t exercise authority over me,]]

    That is arrogance, imo. If she does ,do you slap her???

    Golda – you addressed that question to IC (since you’re quoting his statement), but I’ve got to inteject. If you carefully read the bible references listed in depth throught this discussion thread (and the bible itself), NO ONE is suggesting putting hands on anyone, and your example is an extreme non-applicable example. Do you see that command anywhere in Ephesians 5:22-33? How about Colossians 3:18-20? Do you see violence as a remedy for marital disagreements in 1 Peter 3:1-8? Reading scripture clearly explains the proper conduct of husbands and wives.

    So since IC, me, and others are clearly using scripture in this thread – and scripture is the God-breathed Word – then is God being arrogant? I mean, He established the order of man and woman from creation – was He wrong?

    Also, you assertion about “women giving orders to men in the secular world” were already addressed when IC succinctly stated:

    Golda, we’re talking about the house of God here, not the environment of the money changers (business), or the environment of the publicans (politics) or other secular places. We’re not talking about who can exercise authority in the affairs of man, but the affairs of God. You can be President for all I care and if your platform was sound I’d vote for you myself and advocate for you on my own blog. In fact, if you’re running for President, let me know more details about your platform, because currently I don’t plan to vote for anyone else

    We’re talking about women standing in the role of shepherd to men and bing their primary instructor for scriptural instruction – which has already been exhaustively discussed throughout this thread (again, see ALL of the references to scripture and verse above). Obviously you (and others here) ultimately don’t have a problem with women as pastors/shepherds over men – and you’re entitled to your opinion (formed by your own experiences and philosophy).

    Ultimately, the Word of God stands supreme…and alone.

  85. 89 Independent Conservative September 26, 2008 at 11:01 am

    Golda does not agree with me and so she’s left with obfuscation and efforts to try and misrepresent my statements, which only leads to meaningless banter. So I won’t take that bait. ST has said enough in response to it.

    But I do wonder if Golda feels she chose Jesus or Jesus chose her? Did Jesus make the decision to make her His or does she feel she opened her heart to Jesus?

    And one has to wonder if Golda can accept subjection as something that is godly?

    Ephesians 5:22 (New American Standard Bible)

    22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

    And Golda made an interesting statement in saying:

    The one and only person who wants to exercise authority and control humans is satan.

    Well than who is going to subject all things under their feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27?

  86. 90 GaryV September 27, 2008 at 1:30 pm

    There are some VERY scary hermeneutics here. The Holy Spirit is telling EnochWalked things contrary to what He Authored in the Bible, and apparently giving extra revelation about how He wants EW to share these antiBibical musings with us??

    The Words of Peter and Paul and James are of LESS authority than the Words of Jesus Enoch?? Really?? Can you cite for us where Jesus wrote a single Word of Scripture?? No?? Wanna know why?? Because Jesus decided to allow His Words to be written down by the very men you just cited as being of lesser authority in their Words than Jesus. So,think with me a minute……

    Jesus’ Words carry greater authority than John or Peter or Paul. But EVERY WORD we know that Jesus EVER UTTERED come to us directly from the pens of men like (you guessed it) John and Peter and Paul.

    OK, since we’re going to be Red Letter Christians because the Red Letters are the Words of Jesus, and they have more authority, let me post all the Red Letter Words in the Bible that Jesus wrote. Everybody ready?? here we go……… ZERO.

    That’s right……..zero. Jesus didn’t write a single Word.Not a black one.Not a red one. Zip. Zero. Nada. Goose egg.

    SO……….to say one follows the red letters (Jesus’ Words) because they have more authority than the black letters is to ignore the fact that the same folks who wrote the black letters wrote the red letters too. So how come when John or Peter or Paul write the red letters they have infallible Scriptural authority, but when they write the black letters they dont??

    Matthew……..a disciple of Jesus. All the red letters in his Book were written by him, just like all the black letters. Number of red letters written by Jesus and therefore having more authority?? 0

    Mark……full name John Mark. A disciple of Peter who wrote the recollection of Peter down. Both red letters and black letters were written by Peter, who also wrote 1st Peter and 2nd Peter. Number of red letters in Peter’s Books written by Jesus and therefore having more authority?? 0

    John…….a disciple of Jesus. Wrote the Gospel that bears his name, and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John as well as Revelation. Who wrote the black letters in the Gospel?? John. Who wrote the red letters in the Gospel?? John.

    Number of red letter Words in John’s Books written by Jesus, thereby giving them more power than the black letters?? 0

    Luke…..a disciple of Paul who wrote the Gospel bearing his name and the Book of Acts.These Books were written for Paul’s defense against the Roman court system while Paul was in prison awaiting trial. Therefore, Paul was likely a part of these Books himself. Number of red letters in his Books written by Jesus, thereby giving them more power than the black letters written by Luke?? 0

    Paul’s writings…….number of red letters contained therein which were written by Jesus,therefore giving them more authority than the other black letters written by Paul?? 0

    Fact is, not a single red letter was written by Christ. In fact, every red letter was written by the same men who wrote the black letters, and NONE of them was Jesus.

    How can you choose to believe the red letters over the black letters when the black AND red letters were written by the same person?? It is illogical to believe everything in the red letters, but not everything in the black letters, when the red letters were written by men you have deemed untrustworthy to even write the black letters.

    If you are free to toss out the black letters written by Matthew,Mark, Luke, John, Peter, and Paul, how can you turn around and accept the red letters they wrote?? The ONLY reason we have ANY CONCEPT what Jesus said is because we TAKE THE WORD of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, and Paul. Jesus never as much as dotted an “i” or crossed a “t”.

    How can we believe these men when they tell us what Jesus said, but not believe them when they tell us what Jesus taught them and told them to pass on to us in the black letters??

    In order to have a coherent theology,we can’t have these sort of irreconcilable logical fallacies. We can’t say a writer is reliable when he recites the Words of Jesus, then say he is not reliable when he tells us what Jesus taught him.

    If a writer is unreliable, then he is unreliable………. ..no matter what color the words are.

  87. 91 EnochWalked September 27, 2008 at 11:37 pm

    Dear GaryV and any others that thinks I am a heretic(they called the LORD JESUS one too remember!), So for the sake of CLARIFICATION!

    Who is the WORD? The Bible or JESUS CHRIST? 1.When we do not understand a passage of scripture, we must rely on the HOLY SPIRIT for proper interpretation, to rightly divide the word, Amen. 2. Every writing from Moses to the prophets to the 4 gospels to the Pauline epistles, Peter, John, James, and John’s Revelation-ALL POINT TO CHRIST JESUS! CHRIST JESUS is the FINAL AUTHORITY and THE HOLY GHOST is sent to us to know the TRUTH and FINAL AUTHORITY!

    Paul, John, and James ARE NOT the ones who will separate the sheep from the goats! The LORD JESUS WILL! When writing responses, its hard to say in words without you hearing my voice what I am trying to say…so I ask you to pray and listen to the HOLY SPIRIT, not your tradition, not your intellect,…BUT rely on the HOLY GHOST! Amen! So, I will attempt again to explain myself BETTER for the RECORD!

    If you read my earlier comments, I said there is a contradiction between what Paul writes concerning women in ministry and women pastors VERSUS 3 Witnesses:
    1. what I know what the HOLY SPIRIT is telling me–and HE is not lying to me!
    2. What I have witnessed, seen, and heard walking and fellowshipping with Women in Ministry for the past 12 years.
    3. Other male prophets(I know them to be true!) confirming that GOD has raised up women to be leaders in the church since the beginning!
    Your bible and my bible says, out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses shall every word be established. Matthew 18:16 and 2 Cor. 13:1. Well on this blog and VERY subject, there have been 3 witnesses SAYING GOD HAS CALLED WOMEN PASTORS AND STILL WILL CALL WOMEN PASTORS.
    1st Witness: Me.
    2nd Witness: Lavrai
    3rd Witness: Golda posted http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2007/09/30/women
    -in-ministry-and-female-spiritual-authority/
    IT IS WHAT IT IS! DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS in UNBELIEF! GO AND INQUIRE DIRECTLY TO GOD! DO NOT Inquire a man or a doctrine or a denomination…BUT GO DIRECTLY TO GOD THE FATHER and ASK HIM!

    So, I have dug deeper and deeper and went into prayer! GOD HAS USED WOMEN as ALL over the Bible! Why did HE not call them pastors/shepherds/leaders–I do not know! LET’S ASK HIM! HE did call them wives, helpmeets, prophetesses, Judge, queens, mothers, sisters, daughters, and handmaidens, brides, virgins, virtuous woman, woman, and the Church…I cannot bring to remembrance what else HE called them!

    Women in ministry(***this is my guess, not revelation***) Best thing I discern is GOD has blinded males through the years just as GOD blinded Israel in order for us Gentiles to be saved! That is a prophetic guess of my understanding!
    GOD does keep some things SECRET! Amen!

    I KNOW 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that GOD has raised up women as Pastors, Evangelists, Teachers, Prophets, and Apostles. For those of you who do not acsribe to the Five-Fold or Gift Offices(ANOTHER DISCUSSION!-LOL!)

    Revelation Knowledge Nuggets:
    Well who was a woman apostle in the Bible? If we look at Mary of Magadalene, what was different about her witness compared to the 11 disciples plus Paul. She witnessed the EXACT same things in the flesh as the men did plus she stayed with HIM to the end and came back to the tomb and she was the FIRST commissioned to tell HIS disciples, “HE is risen!” Mary was the FIRST to see HIM in RESURRECTED! She was with the men and OTHER WOMEN in the upper room! Now, question? What makes her any different than the 11 disciples who became apostles?

    In Revelation 12, The Woman(Church) gives birth to a man child? But some of you say, GOD has not chosen women! Hmmm.

    Where in the great commission did it say for ONLY Males to go forth? Alot of verses of scripture use the term, “my son” or “he that believeth in ME”, “the works I do, he shall do also”…”If any man come after ME, let him deny himself”….”KING of kings, LORD of lords”….(this includes queens and female version of lords(duchesses??…)? Those scriptures are GENDER NEUTRAL…SURELY THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WAS NOT ONLY TALKING TO MALES! GOD FORBID!

    Am I deceived(some of you think so)? NOT SO! Many of you love to quote Paul to silence women in ministry and keep WOMEN in BONDAGE! What if I tell you by the unction of the HOLY GHOST, that GOD HAS CALLED, ANOINTED, and RAISED UP women to preach and teach as leaders, pastors, evangelists, teachers, prophets, and some apostles just as HE has called men to preach and teach as pastors, evangelists, teachers, prophets, and some apostles–even today. ( Now many like to say the office of apostle and prophet has ceased…that’s another discussion. )
    ************************************************************
    NOW, HEAR ME to Clarify My Position! I NEVER SAID THESE WOMEN Pastors/leaders WERE HEADS of their husbands OR Heads over other MALE LEADERS in the Church of the LORD JESUS CHRIST(THERE REALLY IS ONLY 1 CHURCH, Amen!). If you ask any real holy woman of GOD…THEY all know that the Man is the head of the woman! The ones who have a problem with that are the ones we should RUN FROM! Amen! … ANYWAY–WE ARE ARE ALL ONE! ONE! O-N-E! Galatians 3:28! AS A matter of FACT…the ONLY WHO IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH IS CHRIST! AMEN!
    ————————————————————
    I too trust the scriptures 100%–but many of you say, “How can you support women pastors?” VERSUS Paul’s writings in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-12.
    ************************************************************
    In 1 Corinthians 11 Paul gives instructions on how WOMEN are to PRAY AND PROPHESY and then says the women are to keep silence in the Churches in chapter 14????GOD is not the author of confusion! That is a contradiction! Amen! Why does this same Paul give instructions on women prophesying and praying with their heads covered then gives an exact opposite direction to the SAME CHURCH in CORINTH??????Come on everybody is smart on this blog, there are no idiots here! How do you prophesy in silence????
    If the women were not married or were widows, who were they to ask SINCE Paul said let them ask their husbands? Another contradiction! Something IS NOT ADDING UP! Amen!

    I read the blog that Golda posted from endtimespropheticwords on women in ministry. I witness with the HOLY SPIRIT that what the author of this blog wrote in her opening commentary is the TRUTH and REVELATION KNOWLEDGE explaining the 1 Corithians 14 and 1 Timothy 2!
    NOW, Whether any of you want to accept this holy woman of GOD or NOT? That is on you! BUT GOD has given her the exact answer to END the Confusion with Paul’s writings on women in ministry and the exact meaning of “USURP!” USURP is not domineering like a Jezebel but seducing with sexual connations(Venus power)!

    Another THING TO CLARIFY when it comes to GOD choosing women? IS THE CHURCH SYMBOLIC of a Man or BRIDE–A WOMAN? Hmmm!
    ************************************************************
    Finally, The INERRANT, INFALLIBLE Word of GOD is the Scriptures in their original languages/tongues of Hebrew(OT) and Greek(New). Not the KJV, NIV, NASB, Amplified, Geneva, etc. etc. Bibles! BUT THE ORIGINAL TRANSLATIONS! This is why my friends WE MUST RELY ON THE HOLY SPIRIT TO INTERPRET! Amen!

    The people I fellowship with are KJV only and even the KJV has “ERRORS!” Amen! Somebody said somewhere on a blog recently that many christians have made the Bible the THIRD PERSON of the TRINITY! THE HOLY SPIRIT or the HOLY GHOST or the RUACH KODESH is the THIRD PERSON, NOT THE Bible! Amen!
    ************************************************************
    The HOLY SPIRIT is telling me AGAIN to warn each of you and I do not say this to be defensive or with a mean tone…If you do not understand WHY HE has raised up women pastors or if you cannot discern HIS women from the Jezebels….LEAVE THEM ALONE! LEAVE THEM ALONE! Do not put your mouth on the WORK of GOD! Amen! Pray and ask GOD about HIS Holy women and REALLY WE ALL NEED DISCERNMENT with any body claiming to be a preacher or teacher of the GOD, whether male or female! Even with us, myself included! Amen.

    GOD bless you all and I pray each of you come to accept the truth.

  88. 92 GaryV September 28, 2008 at 7:55 am

    I was so flummoxed by the hermeneutics, I forgot to weigh in on the topic! Scripture is absolutely clear on the subject………women are not to have teaching authority over men. The attempt to invalidate this as a cultural thing which applied only waaaaaay back then when women were unlearned doesn’t consider the basis Paul uses to support this teaching……..the order of Creation.

    1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

    Had Paul said he doesn’t allow women to teach because they’re unlearned, or because of some culturally based considerations, we could discard it. But since he bases it on God’s order of Creation we have no justification for jettisoning his restrictions.

    God’s proper order of authority is based in Creation, and that will never change like cultural mores change, or the educational status of women has changed.

    Also,the universal practice of the church from Apostolic times has been consistent with the Scriptures in this area. Women WERE allowed to become deaconesses, but their teaching and ministerial duties were ALWAYS directed SOLELY towards women and children.They were not involved in the pastoral and ministerial duties over the church as a whole.

    This ministry of women to other women and children is invaluable, and not to be regarded as a “second rate” ministry. Women throughout church history have been instrumental and invaluable in the life of the church, joining the ranks even of martyrs in their faithfulness to Christ and in protection of His Church.

    Why not accept the roles God has ordained?? Beyond acceptance,why not embrace it?? Those who do are submitting their human egos to Christ and Scripture,just as those who accept the doctrines of Grace submit their egos to Christ and Scripture. Both concepts are offensive to the carnal mind, but glorious to the renewed mind. To embrace that which is naturally offensive as glorious simply because it proceeds from your Master is a sign of God’s Grace. Only He can empower us to do so.

  89. 93 MS. J September 29, 2008 at 4:58 pm

    I am a Black Women and I have not read ANY VERSE that says women are to preach the Gospel. Men and Women have reversed their own roles not GOD. The Family (of any race) have
    taken it upon themselves to run their own lives
    without GOD. “WOMEN WERE SEDUCED AND DECEIVED
    by the devil and as a result “The Man” is supposed to be the “Head” of the Women and suffer painful childbirth (Alot of Women will have to answer to GOD for taking epidurals instead of suffering as GOD COMMANDED). Women will “NEVER EVER BE EQUAL TO MEN”. When a Women says that she “WAS CALLED BY GOD TO LEAD”
    “REBUKE THAT SPIRIT THAT SHE ALLOWED TO SEDUCE AND DECEIVE HER” because it is not GOD but the devil seducing that “SILLY WOMAN”. As Beleivers we are all to minister the word of GOD. Women are essential to ministry as a “HELPMATE” to the man meaning to “SUPPORT THE MAN AS HE MINISTERS THE WORD.” THE WOMAN ACTS AS A HELPMATE TO MORALLY, AND EMOTIONALLY SUPPORT THE MAN ONLY”. Yes there were women who judged, and were prophets but they “NEVER PREACHED”. As soon as women learn and accept this, society will return to GOD. GOD does not force his will on anyone he gives everyone the option to serve and not to serve him. Everyone has the option of being blessed by GOD or being Cursed By God. Without GOD this universe will get worse and worse until it destroys itself for disobedience and rebellion.

  90. 94 Brian Foulks September 29, 2008 at 7:43 pm

    Ms. J,

    I must disagree with you on that women are not equal to men. Now we all may have different function in the service of God but that does not place them of a lesser value in the presence of God or another person.God has placed order and that will be but the love is shared with all the family of God.

  91. 95 GaryV September 29, 2008 at 9:21 pm

    Enoch wrote……..

    (Enoch)-Dear GaryV and any others that thinks I am a heretic(they called the LORD JESUS one too remember!), So for the sake of CLARIFICATION!

    (GV) The difference though Enoch, is that Jesus didn’t contradict the Word. YOU DO.

    (Enoch) Who is the WORD? The Bible or JESUS CHRIST?

    (GV) You seem to be suggesting that there is some sort of tension or contradiction between Jesus and the Word. My Bible say Jesus is the Word made flesh. Just because you don’t understand the Word doesn’t mean it contradicts it AUTHOR. It simply means you need to study to shew yourself approved and rightly divide the Scriptures. Jesus NEVER contradicts the Word.

    (Enoch)1.When we do not understand a passage of scripture, we must rely on the HOLY SPIRIT for proper interpretation, to rightly divide the word, Amen.

    (GV) But if who you think is the Holy Spirit TELLS you in your head something contrary to the very Word He Authored, what you heard in your head is simp,ly the product of your head, not the Holy Spirit.

    (Enoch)2. Every writing from Moses to the prophets to the 4 gospels to the Pauline epistles, Peter, John, James, and John’s Revelation-ALL POINT TO CHRIST JESUS! CHRIST JESUS is the FINAL AUTHORITY and THE HOLY GHOST is sent to us to know the TRUTH and FINAL AUTHORITY!

    (GV) Right…….and if the Scriptures are inaccurate, or in contradiction to Christ, and do not accurately reflect Christ, how can they point to Christ?? You’re saying the Bible contradicts Christ and Christ contradicts the Bible. Care to illustrate where these supposed contradictory verses reside?? I’m all a-tremble with anticipation.

    (Enoch) Paul, John, and James ARE NOT the ones who will separate the sheep from the goats! The LORD JESUS WILL! When writing responses, its hard to say in words without you hearing my voice what I am trying to say…so I ask you to pray and listen to the HOLY SPIRIT, not your tradition, not your intellect,…BUT rely on the HOLY GHOST! Amen! So, I will attempt again to explain myself BETTER for the RECORD!

    (GV) Hearing your voice tell me that Jesus contradicts the Word won’t make me feel better about it. Jesus said the Scriptures cannot be broken (Jn 10:35). Jesus said man lives by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God (Mt 4:4). Paul said that if anyone brought a teaching contradictory to Scripture they were cursed to eternal damnation (1 Cor 16:22).

    Yet, you insist that Jesus contradicts the Word. Therefore, I’m assuming you believe enough of the Bible to be consistent and believe that Jesus is eternally damned. I bet now no one picks you for their softball team at the next church picnic.

    (Enoch)If you read my earlier comments, I said there is a contradiction between what Paul writes concerning women in ministry and women pastors VERSUS 3 Witnesses:
    1. what I know what the HOLY SPIRIT is telling me–and HE is not lying to me!

    (GV) Oh……..so the Holy Spirit said one thing through Paul, and a different thing through YOU. Is that right?? Now we have the Holy Spirit contradicting Scripture, and He must also therefore be eternally damned as well. That’s 2 out of 3 in the Trinity so far. Shall we go for the trifecta??

    2. What I have witnessed, seen, and heard walking and fellowshipping with Women in Ministry for the past 12 years.

    (GV) Now your experience trumps Scripture too. Marvelous. Scripture is either true or not true depending upon whether you agree with it.

    Do you have a PO Box or something so we can all start submitting Scripture for your approval?? Or maybe you can just put out your own Bible, cutting out all the parts you don’t like, and carve them on stone tablets for us?? I sure hope you don’t toss out the parts where Jesus dies for our sins. After all, it’s all up to you.

    (ENOCH)3. OTHER male prophets(I know them to be true!) confirming that GOD has raised up women to be leaders in the church since the beginning!

    (GV) OTHER male prophets Gracie?? I’m assuming you are including yourself in that company. I wonder if the Bible says anything about prophets that contradict God’s Word??

    (ENOCH) Your bible and my bible says, out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses shall every word be established. Matthew 18:16 and 2 Cor. 13:1. Well on this blog and VERY subject, there have been 3 witnesses SAYING GOD HAS CALLED WOMEN PASTORS AND STILL WILL CALL WOMEN PASTORS.
    1st Witness: Me.
    2nd Witness: Lavrai
    3rd Witness: Golda posted

    (GV) You’re JOKING right?? You’re actually twisting that verse to say anybody who can drum up 3 witnesses that contradict Scripture can therefore INVALIDATE Scripture?? Shoot, I can get 3o million witnesses to testify that Jesus is not God, He’s only the Archangel Michael. We call them Jehovah’s Witnesses. So, I guess Jesus isn’t God then if you want to be consistent with this absurdity. That is how cults begin.

    You are one scary dude. I hope to heaven that no one is allowing you behind a pulpit, unless it’s to vacuum the carpet.

    http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2007/09/30/women
    -in-ministry-and-female-spiritual-authority/
    IT IS WHAT IT IS! DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS in UNBELIEF! GO AND INQUIRE DIRECTLY TO GOD! DO NOT Inquire a man or a doctrine or a denomination…BUT GO DIRECTLY TO GOD THE FATHER and ASK HIM!

    (GV) WOOOOOOHOOOOOOO!!! We finally hit the Trifecta!! Now God the Father ALSO is going to contradict His own Word, just like poor Jesus and the Holy Spirit!! I knew we’d get here eventually.>/b>

    (ENOCH)So, I have dug deeper and deeper and went into prayer!

    (GV) Yup, you dug so deep the rest of us are wearing hip boots just to get through this post.

    (ENOCH) GOD HAS USED WOMEN as ALL over the Bible! Why did HE not call them pastors/shepherds/leaders–I do not know! LET’S ASK HIM! HE did call them wives, helpmeets, prophetesses, Judge, queens, mothers, sisters, daughters, and handmaidens, brides, virgins, virtuous woman, woman, and the Church…I cannot bring to remembrance what else HE called them!

    (GV) The pastor/elder/bishop (interchangeable terms) is a specific office in the church. A pastor is not a wife, helpmeet, prophetess, queen, judge, mother, etc. This is called a category error. Unless you’re nowgoing to insist that ever wife, helpmeet, prophetess, queen, judge and mother is also a pastor.

    God called them DIFFERENT NAMES other than “pastor” because they are DIFFERENT THINGS than “pastors”. God’s funny like that.

    (ENOCH)Women in ministry(***this is my guess, not revelation***)

    (GV) This has ALL been your guess. The BIBLE is revelation (not the voices in your head) , and you contradict the Bible. But you’re apparently in good company because you have the entire Trinity contradicting the Bible right along with you.

    (ENOCH)Best thing I discern is GOD has blinded males through the years just as GOD blinded Israel in order for us Gentiles to be saved! That is a prophetic guess of my understanding!
    GOD does keep some things SECRET! Amen!

    (GV) A “prophetic guess”?? Can you point me to some verse of Scripture that tells us about “prophetic guesses”?? Well,my “prophetic guess” is that it doesn’t matter, because as long as you can dig up 3 others that agree with you, the Bible has to bow the knee to you as you’ve already stated.

    (ENOCH)I KNOW 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that GOD has raised up women as Pastors, Evangelists, Teachers, Prophets, and Apostles. For those of you who do not acsribe to the Five-Fold or Gift Offices(ANOTHER DISCUSSION!-LOL!)

    (GV) How do you know it?? From Scripture?? Nope. No women pastors in the Bible. Only in your mind, where the Trinity contradicts the Word. We’ll leave the others for another day.

    (ENOCH)Revelation Knowledge Nuggets:

    (GV) Egad………

    (ENOCH) Well who was a woman apostle in the Bible? If we look at Mary of Magadalene, what was different about her witness compared to the 11 disciples plus Paul. She witnessed the EXACT same things in the flesh as the men did plus she stayed with HIM to the end and came back to the tomb and she was the FIRST commissioned to tell HIS disciples, “HE is risen!” Mary was the FIRST to see HIM in RESURRECTED! She was with the men and OTHER WOMEN in the upper room! Now, question? What makes her any different than the 11 disciples who became apostles?

    (GV) Ummmmmmm………because He never called her?? Because He never commissioned her?? Because the Bible lists TWELVE Apostles, not a Baker’s Dozen??

    (ENOCH)In Revelation 12, The Woman(Church) gives birth to a man child? But some of you say, GOD has not chosen women! Hmmm.

    (GV) Yeah, the woman in Revelation is NOT AN ACTUAL WOMAN. And she’s NOT A PASTOR. And she’s NOT AN APOSTLE. God chose an ass to speak His Word to the prophet too……..I guess you’d sit under a donkey in the pulpit too. You really haven’t a clue how to read the Bible in context, do you??

    (ENOCH)Where in the great commission did it say for ONLY Males to go forth? Alot of verses of scripture use the term, “my son” or “he that believeth in ME”, “the works I do, he shall do also”…”If any man come after ME, let him deny himself”….”KING of kings, LORD of lords”….(this includes queens and female version of lords(duchesses??…)? Those scriptures are GENDER NEUTRAL…SURELY THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WAS NOT ONLY TALKING TO MALES! GOD FORBID!

    (GV) AGAIN………Jesus is NOT commissioning PASTORS here. We’re talking about PASTORAL authority in the church. These verses do not even MENTION church structure or government.But the verses that DO mention church structure PLAINLY exclude women from the pastorate……at least they do unless the Trinity is in you head telling you that Scripture is wrong, and you can change it with 3 witnesses.

    (ENOCH)Am I deceived

    (GV) YES!! And I’m certain I can get more than 3 witnesses to attest to that fact.

    (ENOCH)(some of you think so)? NOT SO! Many of you love to quote Paul to silence women in ministry and keep WOMEN in BONDAGE! What if I tell you by the unction of the HOLY GHOST, that GOD HAS CALLED, ANOINTED, and RAISED UP women to preach and teach as leaders, pastors, evangelists, teachers, prophets, and some apostles just as HE has called men to preach and teach as pastors, evangelists, teachers, prophets, and some apostles–even today.

    (GV) Then your “unctioner” is out of wack, because the Holy Spirit never tells us in our heads things that contradict His WORD.

    (ENOCH)( Now many like to say the office of apostle and prophet has ceased…that’s another discussion. )
    ************************************************************
    NOW, HEAR ME to Clarify My Position! I NEVER SAID THESE WOMEN Pastors/leaders WERE HEADS of their husbands OR Heads over other MALE LEADERS in the Church of the LORD JESUS CHRIST(THERE REALLY IS ONLY 1 CHURCH, Amen!).

    (GV) A pastor has authority over MEN in the CONGREGATION, which Scripture CLEARLY forbids for women.

    1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach (the role of a pastor), nor to usurp authority over the man (which a pastor has), but to be in silence.

    (ENOCH)If you ask any real holy woman of GOD…THEY all know that the Man is the head of the woman! The ones who have a problem with that are the ones we should RUN FROM! Amen! … ANYWAY–WE ARE ARE ALL ONE! ONE! O-N-E! Galatians 3:28! AS A matter of FACT…the ONLY WHO IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH IS CHRIST! AMEN!

    (GV) Galatians 3:28 is NOT talking about the roles of authority in the church. The CONTEXT of this passage is the fact that we are ALL saved by God’s Grace no matter if you are Jew, Greek, male, female, etc. It says NOTHING about church roles. Stop twisting the Word.

    ————————————————————
    (ENOCH)I too trust the scriptures 100%

    (GV) Except where the voices in your head tell you the Trinity contradicts them

    (ENOCH)–but many of you say, “How can you support women pastors?” VERSUS Paul’s writings in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-12.
    ************************************************************
    In 1 Corinthians 11 Paul gives instructions on how WOMEN are to PRAY AND PROPHESY and then says the women are to keep silence in the Churches in chapter 14????GOD is not the author of confusion! That is a contradiction! Amen! Why does this same Paul give instructions on women prophesying and praying with their heads covered then gives an exact opposite direction to the SAME CHURCH in CORINTH??????Come on everybody is smart on this blog, there are no idiots here! How do you prophesy in silence????
    If the women were not married or were widows, who were they to ask SINCE Paul said let them ask their husbands? Another contradiction! Something IS NOT ADDING UP! Amen!

    (GV) UUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMM……..the Bible says women should LEARN in silence and not USURP the authority of men. It does NOT say women should NEVER SPEAK or PRAY or PROPHESY in church. The CONTEXT of 1 Cor 11 is proper decorum in the church, the CONTEXT of 1 Timothy 2 where women are denied the role of teaching and usurping male roles is church STRUCTURE. The Bible NEVER says that women are excluded from praying and prophesying in the church, only from USURPING authority by teaching men.

    (ENOCH) I read the blog that Golda posted from endtimespropheticwords on women in ministry. I witness with the HOLY SPIRIT that what the author of this blog wrote in her opening commentary is the TRUTH and REVELATION KNOWLEDGE explaining the 1 Corithians 14 and 1 Timothy 2!

    (GV) No,it CONTRADICTS Scripture,which is REAL revelation knowledge. The Holy Spirit witnesses to the truth of HIS WORD, not the voices in your head.

    (ENOCH) NOW, Whether any of you want to accept this holy woman of GOD or NOT? That is on you! BUT GOD has given her the exact answer to END the Confusion with Paul’s writings on women in ministry and the exact meaning of “USURP!” USURP is not domineering like a Jezebel but seducing with sexual connations(Venus power)!

    (GV) GARBAGE.

    “from autos, “self,” and a lost noun hentes, probably signifying working (Eng., “authentic”), “to execise authority on one’s own account, to domineer over,” is used in 1Ti 2:12, AV, “to usurp authority,” RV, “to have dominion.” In the earlier usage of the word it signified one who with his own hand killed either others or himself. Later it came to denote one who acts on his own “authority;” hence, “to exercise authority, dominion.”
    See DOMINION, Note.

    Anyone want to point out the sexual aspects here?? Enoch claims it does not mean DOMINION, but the DEFINITION is “TO HAVE DOMINION”. Wait, I know……..Enoch agrees, Golda agrees…..get Enoch, get one more to agree with you and that changes the meaning of Greek words, right??

    (ENOCH) Another THING TO CLARIFY when it comes to GOD choosing women? IS THE CHURCH SYMBOLIC of a Man or BRIDE–A WOMAN? Hmmm!

    (GV) Well,it would be difficult for a MAN to be symbolic of the Bride of Christ……….you know with all those verses against homosexuality and everything. I don’t think God wants His Son portrayed in symbolism as a gay man, do you?? What has that got to do with the role of pastors in Scripture??

    ************************************************************
    (ENOCH)Finally, The INERRANT, INFALLIBLE Word of GOD is the Scriptures in their original languages/tongues of Hebrew(OT) and Greek(New). Not the KJV, NIV, NASB, Amplified, Geneva, etc. etc. Bibles! BUT THE ORIGINAL TRANSLATIONS! This is why my friends WE MUST RELY ON THE HOLY SPIRIT TO INTERPRET! Amen!

    (GV) Errrrrrrrr……..the thing is, we know what the Greek and Hebrew mean. What you do is ignore the clear meaning of Scripture, and twist it to fit the voices in your head, and claim that the entire Trinity contradicts the Word. The proper means of relying on the Holy Spirit is to test the voices in your head against the clear teaching of Scripture, not choose the subjective voices over the objective truth of the Word.

    (ENOCH)The people I fellowship with are KJV only

    (GV) There’s literally no end to the errors to which you subscribe apparently.

    (ENOCH)and even the KJV has “ERRORS!” Amen! Somebody said somewhere on a blog recently that many christians have made the Bible the THIRD PERSON of the TRINITY! THE HOLY SPIRIT or the HOLY GHOST or the RUACH KODESH is the THIRD PERSON, NOT THE Bible! Amen!

    (GV) Yes, the KJV has errors. But how do we know that?? Because we have better Greek and Hebrew manuscript evidence and attestation today. We know how to read Koine Greek and ancient Hebrew. It’s not a mystery. There’s no way to KNOW if there’s ERROR unless you can UNDERSTAND what the Bible is REALLY SAYING.

    You first say we can’t KNOW what the Bible really says,then you say the KJV has errors.How can you know there are errors if you don’t know what it REALLY says??

    ************************************************************
    (ENOCH)The HOLY SPIRIT is telling me AGAIN to warn each of you and I do not say this to be defensive or with a mean tone…If you do not understand WHY HE has raised up women pastors or if you cannot discern HIS women from the Jezebels….LEAVE THEM ALONE! LEAVE THEM ALONE! Do not put your mouth on the WORK of GOD! Amen! Pray and ask GOD about HIS Holy women and REALLY WE ALL NEED DISCERNMENT with any body claiming to be a preacher or teacher of the GOD, whether male or female! Even with us, myself included! Amen.

    GOD bless you all and I pray each of you come to accept the truth.

    (GV) The Holy Spirit isn’t telling you jack squat. Either He lied in His Word, or you’re deceived when you claim He contradicts the Word in your head. I know which way I’m leaning.

    You can’t BOTH be right. Either what the Holy Spirit and Christ and the Father say about the written Word being Eternal, and without error or contradiction, and God breathed, etc. is RIGHT, or the voices in your head you claim are God (but which deny the very things that God says in the Bible) are right. Again, I’m having no trouble choosing.

    You need serious prayer,and a great deal of education. You’re a clear and present danger to anyone who takes your hermeneutic seriously.

  92. 96 Golda September 30, 2008 at 8:28 am

    Miriam listed as a leader along with Moses and Aaron.

    Micah 6:4 For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.

    Daughters were allowed to build.
    Nehemiah 3:12. And next unto him repaired Shallum the son of Halohesh, the ruler of the half part of Jerusalem, he and his daughters.

  93. 97 Golda September 30, 2008 at 8:36 am

    Ephesians 5: 21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

    Husbands should also submit to wives, in addition to loving them.

  94. 98 Golda September 30, 2008 at 8:43 am

    [[I am a Black Women and I have not read ANY VERSE that says women are to preach the Gospel.]]

    Let people go to hell!!

    [[ Women and suffer painful childbirth (Alot of Women will have to answer to GOD for taking epidurals instead of suffering as GOD COMMANDED).]]

    These women do not honour the Bible like IC and speakingtruth.

    [[ Women will “NEVER EVER BE EQUAL TO MEN”. ]]

    Never ever, according to the Bible of IC and ST.

  95. 99 speaking truth September 30, 2008 at 8:59 am

    Golda,

    It appears as though you are more interested in resting on your own assumptions about what you think you’ve seen written in this comment thread – or in the bible, frankly – so I’m reluctant to interrupt. Nevertheless, you did mention me by name so I’ll (once again) clearly reiterate my position.

    I clearly stated that God used women in the bible – and I referenced their roles in the early church (Old and New Testaments). I also stated that that doesn’t negate God’s created order or the truth of His Word. Women were (and are) used during extraordinary circumstances, but that doesn’t change God’s truth or intentions. Period.

    Also, I never said that women were unequal to men as a whole – I am simply stating that women have different roles and functions than men – and that is irrefutable.

    I will give you credit for at least attempting to inject scripture in your argument.

  96. 100 Independent Conservative September 30, 2008 at 12:40 pm

    Golda, Regarding Miriam, she was not Moses, she was Miriam. She was not Aaron, she was Miriam. Not only was her role not exactly the same as Moses or Aaron, but your effort at prooftexting would make Jesus wrong for picking 12 MEN and picking another MAN to replace the man who betrayed Him. You’d probably want Jesus to have selected 8 men and 4 women based on your prooftexting, but He did not. Certainly if Jesus desired women assume every role as a man in the church we’d have at least ONE female in the 12.

    You cite Nehemiah 3:12 as if that justifies women as CHURCH elders, it does not. Nobody is saying women have no role in the church, but their role is not that of elder or teacher over groups with men and women. Those women helped build, they were not high priests.

    Golda, if you are a Christian, you are part of the church, and scripture is clear that those in authority in the church are men.

    Your prooftexting is shameful, citing Ephesians 5:21, that is speaking of the church as a whole being subject to one another. Here is what is speaking about husbands and wives. The verses you left out, Ephesians 5:22-33.

    And trying to attribute statements to me or ST that we’ve never said does not dismiss that you promote things that are unbiblical and therefore by definition are promoting things that are ungodly.

    MS. J, I had not read your comment earlier and had to move from following this discussion as closely in order to handle other things. Seeing my brother GaryV handling things here it is good to know another brother stopped by with sound doctrine once I had to depart. Ms. J, I agree with you that men are to head their house and certain qualified men are to managed the affairs of the House of God. However, we are equals in Christ although our roles differ. Also,
    1 Timothy 2:15 (New American Standard Bible)

    15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

    God does NOT have Paul to instruct Timothy that women MUST have great pain during child birth. Although God has declared that women do birth children in great pain, Genesis 3:16, it does not mean a woman can never take something to relieve that pain. Or how long do you feel is suitable for the woman to endure the pain? Perhaps she should not take an aspirin even after delivery, given the pain was from child birth and you feel she’s got to experience it all? Why even offer anything as relief afterward? What if she’s bleeding internally during child birth in a manner that is abnormal, perhaps the doctors should not try and prevent it and just claim it’s part of the pain? To ease the internal bleeding would lessen pain. You’re using a faulty view of 1 Timothy 2:15, you’ve placed a burden there that does not exists, that women can’t take anything to relieve pain during child birth, that’s not in scripture at all.

    Let me show you how your view of things with women and childbirth carries a flaw, by showing something about men.
    Genesis 3:19 (New American Standard Bible)

    19 By the sweat of your face
    You will eat bread,
    Till you return to the ground,
    Because from it you were taken;
    For you are dust,
    And to dust you shall return.”

    So if women must have pain with no medicines during child birth, what of the man who works in an air cooled office all day, never breaking a sweat?

    What God has declared is that women have pain in childbirth, but never do we see in scripture women prevented from trying to ease that pain. The fact they seek the epidural is proof women understand God’s decree of pain during child birth is real, it does not make their using the medicine sinful. If I don’t get enough sleep tonight and catch a cold because I sowed no sleep and reaped illness, should I not take any medicine because I reaped an illness? Woman has reaped pain during child birth and she certainly can take medicine when in pain or about to have pain.

    What is said in 1 Timothy 2:15 is that the woman are saved by accepting all that is in the role of women, including having children, not avoiding efforts to raise a family for personal gain, continue in the faith with love and sanctity with self-restraint.

    I’ll just mention, women who can’t bear children are not at any loss. Because if God in His sovereignty decided a woman would be barren does not mean she has not kept 1 Timothy 2:15. She simply is not going to bear children, but still should live as a woman of God.

    Regarding bearing children, what God has Paul speaking against in 1 Timothy 2:15 is when women who are capable of something like bearing children decide they will refuse to have any. Just as those who try and forbid marriage are spoken against in 1 Timothy 4. (In that same letter.) This is something many in today’s society should take heed to.

  97. 101 rascoe1 September 30, 2008 at 1:39 pm

    Miss J, I must disagree with you in saying “women will never ever be equal to men”. Like Brian Foulks said, we have different functions. In marriage, the man and woman are joined and become one, there is no inferior part, just different roles. 1 Cor.12:12-30, tells that as Believers we are one body, none being less. Our true division, as fallen beings, saved by grace, is whether or not we accepted the atonement that Jesus made for us when he was sacrificed on the cross.

  98. 102 MS. J September 30, 2008 at 8:41 pm

    To Mr. Foulks

    I have read your response and the important word here is “BUT”. There are no acceptions to the rules in your home and so the same goes with GOD. Women are “Weaker” than Men in the sense that “EVE” was deceived by the devil because of her weakeness, “Adam” was not. If you have read scripture “SATAN” “NEVER” tested “Adam”. The deception did not come until “EVE” arrived. GOD “GAVE” Eve the right to be Adam’s equal under God’s command. Eve was seduced and deceived by Satan, she deceived Adam bringing a curse on “Everyone” (Satan, Eve, and Adam) that right of “Equality” was removed from “EVE”. Women are weaker and most vunerable to deception (And Yes I am including “Myself”) Satan knows this. (REDA THE ENTIRE CHAPTER 1 Peter 3 Chapter) I like to deal with facts not Society’s Emotions.

    To Independent Conservative:
    In the Bible verse you gave 1 Timothy 2 Chapter (Read the entire chapter don’t jut pick out parts to tell someone off!) the IMPORATNT word here is “IF”. Women who are “Pastors” have not kept the “Faith” and have not been “Obedient” to Christ (Jesus) and the Word of GOD including:
    childbearing (Mothers,or Wives),faith, Love, holiness, and modesty. So this doesn’t apply here. All things with GOD come with conditions. “If” you Obey GOD’s Commands (Not Kneeling to Society’s) you will be blessed and be a blessing. So women being Pastor’s is the not in this Verse. Next the Bible verse you submitted in Genesis the 3rd Chapter. Desk jobs were created for “INDEPENDENT WOMEN” who decided “They can do anything a Man can do (WNBA aka the LESBIAN LEAGUE)but even that was not good enough. As you have read in my post “WE (Society)” have accepted what GOD said not to. When God places “A Curse”, “A Judgement” ect.. on you who can remove it? Can Medicine? People? Science? I’ll answer for you GOD is the only one who can remove this from you! If what you have submitted is true can Society eliminate Monthly Periods? They can regulate them or shorten them but ask yourself is that really safe for you and your body? Epidurals are unbiblical period. Yeah it numbs the pain for a period of time but when a women’s labor starts does this drug still work? I will say there are “NATURAL” substitutes (Like water Births). If you are comapring “An illness or Cold” to Giving Birth you have some real serious problems. If you have done your research about medicines in the bible there are herbs and “Natural Healings” people used. Children are a “Blessing” from GOD (Adopted, and otherwise). It is God’s choice who and when a women will have children. Not People (Birth Control). BE VERY CAREFUL WITH THIS SUBJECT OF CHILDBEARING. ANYONE IN THE BIBLE WHO TAMPERED ANYWAY WITH THIS PROCESS WAS ELIMINATED BY GOD (SODOMY AND GOMORRAH)

    To Rascoe1

    If you quote scripture get a clarity and understanding of what you are reading. “READ THE ENITRE BOOK”. This Chapter in 1 Corinthians 12 chapter is speaking of the “BODY OF CHRIST” making a reference to a marriage between a man & woman being “ONE BODY”. Every gift of the “HOLY SPIRIT’ in the “BODY OF CHRIST” is important. We in the “BODY OF CHRIST” are to use our “SPIRITUAL GIFTS” to edify the “Church” not to use them as “POWER”. The Corithians were misusing these “Gifts” dividing the church. This has nothing to do with what I submitted in my post. I do respect your attempt to correct my view but this is not it.

  99. 103 Independent Conservative September 30, 2008 at 10:41 pm

    Ms. J, I’m talking to you about women with pain during child birth, we agree women are not to be pastors or teachers over any assembly, meeting or group where men are present, read my comment to you again, slowly.

    Yeah it numbs the pain for a period of time but when a women’s labor starts does this drug still work?

    I’ve been told by women that it works very well and even in the process of actual delivery it helps more than not using it. That’s what I’ve heard from women who had babies. Yes it works, even during labor and delivery. Got to get it early though, can’t go getting it seconds before delivery, it does need time to set in before the delivery.

    You claim Epidurals are unbiblical, where in the Bible are we told woman can’t use them? Again, given a man must toil by the sweat of his face, is it a sin for a man to work in an air conditioned office and never break a sweat? Is office air conditioning unbiblical?

    You go on about water births herbs. So a woman giving birth can use an herb or water to ease her pain, but not medicine? What, if it’s not an herb mentioned in the Bible, a woman can’t use it for labor pain? The fact you advocate water as a means to ease labor pains totally destroys your own argument.

    Ms. J, when did God command a woman to NOT do anything to curb labor pains WHILE she’s birthing a child?

    What about women who are told they need a cesarean birth? Are you against cesareans, which would mean you want the woman to die in child birth when it could have been avoided and she still give birth. Or are you against a woman who is receiving a cesarean getting pain medication during the procedure, meaning you desire a woman’s stomach literally be cut open with nothing to ease the pain?

    What about a woman taking prenatal vitamins? That does tamper with the process of the child’s development, are you against prenatal vitamins too?

    You seem to agree with the Roman Catholic teachings against all forms of birth control. So if a woman is told by a doctor after having multiple children, that she’d have dangerous complications if she gets pregnant again. You’re saying she should go get pregnant again and just possibly die during delivery rather than use birth control, or abstain from sex during her times of ovulation? Because you know some people do birth control by simply avoiding sex at certain moments. Regardless the method used, it’s still birth control, rhythm method, pills, patches, shots, whatever.

    You act as if you’ve made up some category you proclaim “natural”, but it makes no difference. You’re approving of the same things you speak against, but via different methods. That is hypocritical. Suggesting water while being against a shot for pain. You probably approve of the rhythm method while you cry against birth control pills.

    Sodom and Gomorrah had homosexuals, not married couples who were having babies and sometimes using a birth control method such as the rhythm method, which would have been the form used then. The men in Sodom didn’t even want women when virgins were offered. They were taken out because sin like homosexuality defiles the land where the act occurs, Leviticus 18.

    Given you addressed other messages to other people, I’ll leave those to the individuals who were addressed.

  100. 104 rascoe1 October 1, 2008 at 1:49 am

    MsJ, I really do understand what 1Corinthians 12 is speaking about, I know, it is about spiritual gifts. My point, was the UNITY in the Body, none being inferior. Whether it we talking about spiritual gifts or just physically, we are all his and none is inferior, we all have different functions. I could even argue the point that The Lord gave the instructions to Adam and him being the head, should have taken authority, but instead he disobeyed the Lord and even blamed the Lord for giving her to him. My point Ms J, (sorry for not using the correct scripture), is that as long as we are in Christ, He sees us as ONE, (remember we are His Bride), each having a purpose, none being less, for His glory.

  101. 105 rascoe1 October 1, 2008 at 2:49 am

    MsJ, one quick question, what do you of Genesis 2:18-22. The words “helper comparable” was used to describe Gods’ thought process when considering a mate for Adam.

  102. 106 MS. J October 1, 2008 at 2:11 pm

    To Independent Conservative

    This post is about “Women Pastor’s” you brought up childbearth, men working in office buildings under a/c. Does giving birth in water have any risks to the mother or the baby? Is it natural childbirth? “NO” Do not twist what I say when I mention “herbs” they were used for many things. C-Sections are not always needed. I have witnessed many types of breach births (even after a “Doctor” says a C-Section Would be best). “Imagine This” you are pregnant and about to give birth and a “DOCTOR” tells you that the baby cannot be born naturally so you will need a C-Section, but your body is telling you to push this baby out naturally who do you listen to the “Doctor” or “Your Own Body”? Keep in Mind that “Doctors” don’t work for you they work for the Government and their family’s. The Cost of a C-Section (Surgery) in America costs at least $11000 on up(that includes Doctors, the nurse, Medications, The Room ect..). You would actually allow someone to take a knife to cut your stomach open? Ask yourself what are in Pre-natal Vitamins? Fruits, Vegetables, Iron, Calicium ect.. Wouldn’t it be much healthier for the Woman and the baby to just eat those things? I warn against any method of Birth-Control because I have been a victim of them, and so have many others. Those substances “SLOWLY” contaminate the body leading up to sterilization. Also after you stop taking them it will be years before your body “TOTALLY” gets rid of them. “Compare” the children from 20 years ago until now. Back then drugs were not used as much, but now look at these “Elephants” we call children. I never thought I would see the day when a “4year old would weigh over 100 pounds”. I have relatives who have had children and within the first few months the kids gained so much weight from “FORMULA” that’s not normal (But it is a good thing they took their pre-natal vitamins right?). “ANY TYPE” of tampering with children’s creation “MALE OR FEMALE” is a “SIN AGAINST GOD” period”. Give this some thought: Sin starts with a thought, if that thought is left unrepented it turns into desire, and if left unrepented desire turns into acts (wherever they may occur). Sexual sins in the bible means “EVERYTHING” Bi-sexual, Homosexual, Open Marriages, Orgy’s, Children (including infants),Prostitution, fornication,adultery, ect.. I hope you get my point that nothing is off limits when it comes to sexual sins. Just look at Society and how it it “SO ACCEPTABLE” (You quote the bible so I know you have read what happens as a result of “SEXUAL SIN AND THOSE WHO ACCEPTED IT”. NO ONE IN THE CITIES WERE SAVE NO PREACHER, NO PROPHET, NO CHRISTIANS, ECT.. WERE SPARED BECAUSE THEY ACCEPTED IT! Just as my point from the first post was this that “WOMEN ARE NOT PASTOR’S” For future references so that there is no misunderstanding the topic of this post is “WOMEN AS PASTOR’S” you agreed with me by saying no “WOMEN SHOULD NOT BE PASTOR'” all this other stuff is “Personal”. It’s very obvious you have a problem with “MEN” (As a Spirit Filled Beleiver I don’t have to Physically see you to Discern Your Spirit). I don’t agree with your views and you don’t agree with mine and that should be it. Agreed?

    Rascoe1

    Again, the scriptures are “PLAIN” this is only referring to “Spiritual Gifts” they are needed and equally important in the Body Of Christ.”(Read the story about Prophetess Anna in Luke Chapter 2) This women was very important,respectable/respected, she knew her role. Next thing is this do believe you have been mislead or haven’t received a clear understanding about the “WORD OF GOD” concerning the difference between “FUNCTION OF THE CHURCH” AND “THE FUNCTION IN THE BODY OF CHRIST” they are both completely different with the same goal “SAVING THE LOST”. Now I do agree that this was “Eve’s” “INITIAL PURPOSE” just as everything else in the garden had a “Helper” however “Eve’s Decisions Not God’s or Adam’s” destroyed that. Take a moment out of your day to watch the birds or some other kind of out door creature. Observe how the male and female of that creature react to one another. Do you notice that both creatures have a role and neither tries to switch up? If you live in a city where you are unable to do this watch the discovery channel (not the one where they give birth all day but the other one)if you have cable.

  103. 107 Independent Conservative October 1, 2008 at 5:08 pm

    Ms. J.

    This post is about “Women Pastor’s” you brought up childbearth, men working in office buildings under a/c.

    You brought up the issue of childbirth, not me. I responded to your statements of:

    Women and suffer painful childbirth (Alot of Women will have to answer to GOD for taking epidurals instead of suffering as GOD COMMANDED).

    You’re wrong. And you type out volumes, but still have no scripture showing: when did God command a woman to NOT do anything to curb labor pains WHILE she’s birthing a child?
    Given you have not answered that, I guess you agree that your statements on this have no foundation in the Word of God?

    “Imagine This” you are pregnant…

    Sorry, I’m a man, I can’t even begin to imagine being pregnant 😆 .

    but your body is telling you to push this baby out naturally who do you listen to the “Doctor” or “Your Own Body”?

    So than you feel the woman should go for potential death on the table. How is it more godly to have vaginal versus cesarean child birth? GIVE US YOUR SUPPORTING SCRIPTURE PLEASE? On what foundation do you assert “your body” risking death on the table is more godly than cesarian? Are both not painful? Women who get a cesarian need longer to recover than vaginal, maybe cesarian is more godly by your view of women HAVING to take the pain without medication? The body is of FLESH, so explain to us how an impulse of the body for a certain birthing procedure as opposed to a different procedure is godly? Scripture please. I say it does not matter and give you Romans 14.

    Ask yourself what are in Pre-natal Vitamins? Fruits, Vegetables, Iron, Calicium ect.. Wouldn’t it be much healthier for the Woman and the baby to just eat those things?

    And where is your proof that women who take the vitamins have issues? What, are you trusting the study of a doctor who you say lies to make money? But please show us your evidence. Again, I give you Romans 14 and it’s a debate over what someone eats, it’s up to them and God won’t judge them for a vitamin if they feel comfortable with using it.

    So are pre-natal vitamins sinful? Are they altering the birthing process? You said it can’t be tampered with in any way. I say vitamins are fine.

    I warn against any method of Birth-Control because I have been a victim of them, and so have many others. Those substances “SLOWLY” contaminate the body leading up to sterilization.

    OK, so you warn against them because of an experience you had. That’s something you’re saying based on what occurred to you. But you’ve still not shown how as you said:

    BE VERY CAREFUL WITH THIS SUBJECT OF CHILDBEARING. ANYONE IN THE BIBLE WHO TAMPERED ANYWAY WITH THIS PROCESS WAS ELIMINATED BY GOD (SODOMY AND GOMORRAH)

    We’ve gone from a declaration of God destroying women on birth control, to a medical concern with some birth control pills used by some women.

    I hear cell phones near the head are dangerous, will I have to answer to God for having a cell phone?

    Back then drugs were not used as much, but now look at these “Elephants” we call children. I never thought I would see the day when a “4year old would weigh over 100 pounds”.

    Also the average life expectancy has increased, so the benefits of medicine have proven to trump the cases of problems, which usually are worked out in time. Give the 4 year old less Twinkies.

    kids gained so much weight from “FORMULA” that’s not normal (But it is a good thing they took their pre-natal vitamins right?).

    And what about kids that are allergic to their mother’s breast milk? And again, total life expectancy rates are higher now. Still, I’ll grant you breast milk is good when it can be given, but overall kids who grow up on formula do fine, me included and I’m not fat, never was. Is baby formula a sin too? SCRIPTURE PLEASE?!
    If a baby is getting fat off formula, feed them less. Again, I give you Romans 14.

    “ANY TYPE” of tampering with children’s creation “MALE OR FEMALE” is a “SIN AGAINST GOD” period”.

    So then prenatal vitamins are a sin? Is prenatal surgery a sin? Please provide scripture that shows a supplement or procedure used to improve the health of a baby in the womb is a sin? Stop with the “period” jabber and show some scripture. You’ve told me what YOU say, not what God says. I’ve asked you directly repeatedly.

    I say God declared much of what you’re saying is bogus in Romans 14.

    Do you forbid people from eating meat too?

    It’s very obvious you have a problem with “MEN” (As a Spirit Filled Beleiver I don’t have to Physically see you to Discern Your Spirit). I don’t agree with your views and you don’t agree with mine and that should be it. Agreed?

    Given the faulty things you’ve been saying, any discernment you claim is very questionable.

    I don’t agree with your proposal that we should just table this and I won’t stop. Because you’re offering advice that HAS KILLED PEOPLE.

    And yes, some women even need birth control pills for things more than just trying not to get pregnant. Some women need a cesarian or may likely die during child birth. Vitamins are OK. And you need to stop binding people with laws of your own creation.

  104. 108 Golda October 3, 2008 at 1:09 am

    According to the Bible, women should suffer during childbirth , men should not work in AC offices and women should not preach to men. Thanks, case settled.

    Hope the Bible lovers IC and ST do the following also. Otherwise they are hypocrites.

    1. As Bible loving men, they always pray with their hands raised. I Timothy 2:8
    2. As Bible loving men they obey their bosses as they obey the Lord. Ephesians 6:5
    3. They greet everybody with a holy kiss as instructed by the Bible, and not with a handshake.

  105. 109 Golda October 3, 2008 at 2:09 am

    [[Golda, Regarding Miriam, she was not Moses, she was Miriam. ]]

    Oh.

    [[She was not Aaron, she was Miriam. ]]

    Oh.

    [[Not only was her role not exactly the same as Moses or Aaron,]]

    If you have not noticed, even the roles of Moses and Aaron were different.

    Why God had to say He sent her before them? Only leaders are sent before the people.

    [[ but your effort at prooftexting would make Jesus wrong for picking 12 MEN and picking another MAN to replace the man who betrayed Him. You’d probably want Jesus to have selected 8 men and 4 women based on your prooftexting, but He did not. Certainly if Jesus desired women assume every role as a man in the church we’d have at least ONE female in the 12.]]

    By the same logic, because Jesus didn’t pick some non jew,gentiles should not be allowed as apostles/disciples of Jesus.

    Jesus chose 12, did they straight away assume office in the church? What work did Jesus assign to them?

    Not just the twelve, a lot of women were with Jesus.

    Luke 8:
    1.And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,
    2. And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,
    3. And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance

    Is the following command only for men? This calls for teaching the commands.

    Matthew 28:20

    20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

    Romans 16:1, 7 . Phoebe was a deacon. Junia was a woman apostle.

    3.Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
    4. Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
    5. Likewise greet the church that is in their house.

    Paul was listing Priscilla first and then Aquila. I am sure she would have preached in their home church.

    If you think women cannot teach men in the church, they should not be allowed to teach or give orders to any man in the secular world also. Because God won’t use one standard for the church and another standard for the world.

    [[Your prooftexting is shameful, citing Ephesians 5:21, that is speaking of the church as a whole being subject to one another. ]]

    I hope you consider women/wife as members of church. In that case you need to subject to your wife as a member of a church. If she prophesies a correction, you need to obey that word of God coming from her mouth.

    We are all kings and priests of God. All called to do the Father’s work. If you(male/female) are called tp preach, you preach. If you(male/female) are called to lead, you lead.

    Inspite of all these things, if you people still say women should not teach men, then I can only conclude that you are tools of the devil. You hurt women(devil’s job) and do damage to the kingdom of God.

  106. 110 speaking truth October 3, 2008 at 10:45 am

    OK Golda,

    I’ve tried to be accomodating and uncharacteristicly quiet to let the discussions in this thread flow naturally, but I can no longer stomach your hack-job exegesis. Even when you quote scripture you butcher it by adding your own flawed assessment and reading into/putting words where they simply don’t belong. I will correct you this final time, then you will no longer be permitted to comment in this thread – particularly because you ignore common sense:

    If you have not noticed, even the roles of Moses and Aaron were different.

    Why God had to say He sent her before them? Only leaders are sent before the people.

    Show me in scripture where Miriam’s leadership role is equated with Moses and Aaron

    By the same logic, because Jesus didn’t pick some non jew,gentiles should not be allowed as apostles/disciples of Jesus.

    Jesus chose 12, did they straight away assume office in the church? What work did Jesus assign to them?

    Jesus chose 12 MEN. Can you not see that clearly? Is the “Golda Abridgbed Version” of the bible now the accepted translation of scripture?

    Not just the twelve, a lot of women were with Jesus.

    Luke 8:
    1.And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,
    2. And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,
    3. And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance

    C’mon Golda, you’re stretching the bounds of serious credibility when you say something like that. So, because “a lot of women were with Jesus”, that means that they were appointed to church leadership by Jesus? Now you’re sounding like the Cult of Mary apologists who say that Mary is equal to God because she was with Jesus when He was crucified.

    If we use that same standard, can we also say that the slave girl who was inhabited by demons became an Apostle because she followed Paul (after all, she was with him”)?

    Is the following command only for men? This calls for teaching the commands.

    Matthew 28:20

    20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

    Now this is becoming laughable Golda. Read Matthew 28:16-20 in context to see that Jesus was CLEARLY talking to His disciples – HIS MALE DISCIPLES. Are we suppose to believe what you say about the bible (not “ST’s bible”, not “IC’s bible” – but the bible itself) or can we simply read the Word of God for ourselves to see how you have to manipulate it to make your point?

    Romans 16:1, 7 . Phoebe was a deacon. Junia was a woman apostle.

    3.Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
    4. Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
    5. Likewise greet the church that is in their house.

    Paul was listing Priscilla first and then Aquila. I am sure she would have preached in their home church.

    Yet another hack attempt at exegesis. If you read Romans 16 in context (and entirety), you’ll see that Paul was mentioning those who helped him spread the Gospel. Do the words “servant of the church” or “my fellow workers” equal “Apostle” to you? So, by virtue of assisting in the spreading of the Gospel message, these women became church leaders (or even Apostles) by osmosis?

    I’m done with you Golda. It’s funny that those of us who read scripture are “tools of the devil” when folks like you who read verses out of context (of you read them at all) are considered saints in your book.

    Why don’t you sit on the sidelines and observe – with your bible in your lap following along – and let others contend for the faith on your behalf. Stop now before GaryV gets hold of your poor and shameless exegetiical murder.

  107. 111 Independent Conservative October 3, 2008 at 11:35 am

    Golda,

    Hope the Bible lovers IC and ST do the following also.

    The fact you would mock us as “Bible lovers” says something about you.

    Why God had to say He sent her before them? Only leaders are sent before the people.

    Again, you’re missing it was not her who brought the tablets with the commandments. And she was not the one mainly responsible when Moses went away. She bore some, but she was not Moses or Aaron, she also was NOT a priest. Again, this does not show women should be church elders. You’ve shown no scripture that shows a woman as a church elder and ignore scripture that forbids it.

    By the same logic, because Jesus didn’t pick some non jew,gentiles should not be allowed as apostles/disciples of Jesus.

    Have you not read John 10:16 and realized when Paul sent 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Timothy 3 to Timothy, that Timothy was in all Gentile territory? Do you know where Titus was when he was sent Titus 1?

    Jesus chose 12, did they straight away assume office in the church? What work did Jesus assign to them?

    You’re helping prove my point although you don’t understand what you’re saying.

    Phoebe was NOT an elder or teacher over men. Junia/Junias an apostle? And where in the Bible do you read that the Holy Spirit set her apart for service like Paul and Banabas, Acts 13:2?

    Paul was listing Priscilla first and then Aquila. I am sure she would have preached in their home church.

    How are you sure? Does Paul not saying it make you sure? Does Paul saying he forbids women to teach over men make you sure, 1 Timothy 2? Does Paul instructing that God has lead him to teach that elders should be certain MEN make you sure, 1 Timothy 3?

    And I 2nd all that ST has already said to you.

  108. 112 Hard Reality March 26, 2009 at 11:47 pm

    Women should not pastor. Why because feelings play a big role in females, not to say that men don’t feel, it’s not our main compass. I grew up in a church where the Pastor was women. Half of the time was spent convincing people she should be a pastor. So 50% of the time was dedicated to the justification of her place, and the other half paranoia that someone was trying to take over the ministry. Preaching and being pastor are different, but the authoritative nature of preaching confuses a lot of women that they should be Pastors. Men can not bare children, there are distinctions that define us as man and women, not less or more but distinguish.

  109. 113 Isha Gabiel April 5, 2009 at 12:14 am

    I am in the place that you described earlier in your story. I was raised in a small town ministry that was lead by a female pastor. I have since left but my family remains there and now I am about to get married and it is not at my hometown church. I am struggling with the female pastor was well as other issues. This of course it raise tomoil in my family that even has a few female pastors in it. I love my family and i love my fiance. But I love God more and i just want to follow after his will and his way. Any thoughts on how to deal with this?

  110. 115 Rev. Judith Johnson-Siebold, Ph.D. September 3, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    I have been a United Methodist pastor for 41 years. Jesus Christ called me to His ministry, and there is nothing in the Gospels to dispute that call.
    Rev. Judith Johnson-Siebold, Ph.D.
    Rotterdam United Methodist Church
    Schenectady, NY 12306

    • 116 speaking truth September 3, 2009 at 4:35 pm

      With all due respect, Dr. Johnson-Siebold, the Gospels themselves dispute your role as a Pastor and spiritual teacher of men. The issue has been debated for centuries (and at length in this forum), so I won’t re-type what can be clearly ready by scrolling above (and reading a bible).

      I won’t doubt that you were called by Christ into Christian service, that’s between you and God. But I wonder if God would say one thing (through His Word) and do another. I ask rhetorically – did He call you into service or did he call you to Pastor a flock in His name? Just because the Methodists ordained it does not make it adherent to sound doctrine inspired and God-breathed.

      As I said, I respectfully disagree.

  111. 117 Ms Leah October 27, 2009 at 2:20 am

    If you are male or female who has a problem with a female preacher, i encourage you to close your eyes and listen to the spirit-man speaking. Listen to whats being said. If the female house is the problem, then ignore the house and listen to the resident, the spirit-man within, because GOD speaks through the spirit-man. I believe If GOD was totally against Women preaching he would not have appointed Miriam to be a leader to His people alongside Moses and Aaron (Micah 6:4) In Paul’s letter to the Corinthians (1Corinthians 14:34) Women should be silent in the church but further down in the same letter Paul gave instructions to women who pray or prophesy in the church.(1 Corinthians 11:5) I believe that Paul’s instructions had to do with keeping order in the churches when the peoples carnality or cultural background was creating confusion and discord. So instead of asking IF women should be in leadership, we should be asking HOW they are to exercise their leadership, given their purpose and design.

    • 118 speaking truth October 27, 2009 at 3:24 pm

      Ms. Leah,

      This discussion is grounded in God’s breathed Word inspired by men to record for future generations – not about feelings or cultural relevance. Let’s be clear – Miriam was Moses and Aaron’s sister, not the pastor of a church. In fact, God nearly killed her for when she openly question the judgement and leadership of her brother – the one whom God Himself chose to speak to and through (read Numbers 12 in totality). Surely if God wanted to demonstrate the spiritual authority of women, then He would have chosen Miriam from the very begining. Surely having a woman meet with Him and speak His Words to the children of Israel would’ve been a perfect demonstration of His intent. And Micah 6:4 only refers back to Miriam’s role detailed in Numbers – it doesn’t establish her as a spiritual teacher.

      Your discussion of Paul’s Corinthian epistles must also be taken in context. Paul’s instruction while prophesying in the church (1 Corinthians 11:5) in no way establishes a woman as a spiritual teacher of men. I (nor anyone else in this forum) denied that woman have a place in the assembly. In fact, the Word clearly instructs women to teach children and other women in the ways of God – yet men are clearly established as the spiritual head under God. After we close our eyes to “listen to our spirit-man”, we should open them to read the Words that the Father (through His Spirit AND His Son) inspired men to write. God does not contradict Himself.

  112. 119 anointedvessel October 27, 2009 at 10:17 pm

    GCM Watch you hit the nail on the head. My Father AND Mother pastor a ministry together in Baltimore. As they are one flesh My father and mother share the pastoral duties but my father is my mother’s head therefore she is in order biblically. However; I appreciate how you stated your case without bias and your “bottom line” sans malice towards women preachers and the typical “keeping silent in the church scripture”. Well said and thanks IST for posting and moderating this lively discussion!

    ~Anointed

  113. 120 Rev. Judith Johnson-Siebold, Ph.D. November 24, 2009 at 8:32 pm

    After several funerals and three worship services per week I am just now getting back to this forum. If the same people are still around and reading this, then to them I repeat what I said earlier that was disputed: There is nothing in the Gospels (i.e., Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John where Jesus’ words are recorded) that disputes the right of God to call women to be pastors. Paul may have had other ideas, but I am not a Paulist, I am a Christian.

  114. 121 Solo Christo December 16, 2009 at 9:41 am

    I have a question: If women are to be silent in the churches as interpreted by the “women must be silent” scripture, in what context should women be silent? The same Paul said in Galatians 3:8 that in “There is no longer…male or female but we are all ONE (in the same) in Christ Jesus”. Contradictory of Paul to say such a thing? Surely not!

    Let’s remember, church is NOT a building but a gathering of the saints “two or three gathered in His name”. So If Paul was really saying women must be silent in the church, which “church” was he referring to? If your answer is ALL churches, then that takes women out of leadership in EVERY KIND of ministry including as Bible study leaders, etc.

    Remember, the whole “solo scriptora” view is a little off because this is a view that ignores the outer Biblical context of the history of the church (solely because it’s not explicitly stated in the Bible). We NEED historical context to properly interpret what Paul was teaching to the church of Corinth (an ad hoc teaching at that). He was correcting specific issues going on at the church. That’s all…

    “Study to show yourself approved” so you can “correctly handle the word of truth”

    God Bless

  115. 122 Nancy December 27, 2009 at 12:06 am

    This starts with Ephesians 4:10 —I would like to see the opposition to this scripture. This scripture says it all – in it, it says women can be pastors — and it sys for the perfecting of the saints for the edifying of the body of Christ!!!!!

    10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

    • 123 speaking truth December 29, 2009 at 10:10 am

      Where in Ephesians 4:10 do you see that God ordained women as church leaders, Nancy? Did I miss something? We can disagree, but don’t inject anything into scripture to try and support your view.

  116. 124 Nancy December 27, 2009 at 12:19 am

    I want to also include this verse — where it than specifically includes the whole body. Listen I know women are called just like men to pastor. A good pastor is just working for the Lord because of their passion and love for the Lord and they want to bring Truth to a dieing world.

    Ephesians 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

  117. 125 Alicia April 27, 2010 at 3:17 pm

    Below, I’ve cut and pasted a comment that I made on another site about women pastors. This comment was based on an article about juanita bynum. People said that gays were attending her church because shes a female pastor. As you will read, I am not a supporter at all of juanita. I’ve also pasted two responses. Please read all of it. All be blessed and encouraged.

    Here is the response:

    February 24th, 2010 at 1:58 PM
    Look, clearly Juanita Bynum is not of God. But people need to stop acting like she represents all women in ministry. She does not! People are acting like her foolishness is happening simply because she’s a women. But that’s not the case. Paul says for a women to be silent in the church. But at the same time, he acknowledges that women prophecy in church (1 Corinthians 11:3-5). But I guess the female prophets were just prophesying to women, and the men plugged up their ears!?! We really need to study scripture. Interestingly, the bible says “And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.” (1 corinthians 12:28). Clearly, this scripture explains rank in the church and without argument, one must admit that the scripture states that prophets are second in rank. But I guess that doesn’t apply to a true female prophet? The truth is, Juanita bynum is false, and so are so many other male and female leaders and pastors in the church. It has nothing to do with being male or female. They are simply anti-Christ men and women. Gays and lesbians don’t just show up in a church because a women is the pastor. Gays and lesbians show up where ever their ungodly lifestyle is tolerated! –Point blank. But praise be to God, there are still true male and female prophets in the church and what God tells them, comes to pass.

    Reply
    C
    February 24th, 2010 at 4:13 PM
    There are many capacities for women to fill in a church *body* (eg those that you mentioned), that do not contradict the clear admonishment of Scripture of women being silent and against women exercising authority over men in church *services*…

    Reply
    Alicia
    February 24th, 2010 at 7:03 PM
    C,
    you do understand that women did prophecy during church services right? Not just when they were walking down the street or during their leisure time. They did prophecy when men were present in service. That’s what that Paulinian passage is talking about (church service). If it wasn’t talking about church service, Paul wouldn’t have addressed a woman having a head covering in that passage. I don’t have time to go into apologetics. But what I will say is, if “Prophet” is not a position of authority, I don’t know what is. –and if Prophecy doesn’t consist of imparting knowledge, I don’t know what does. Clearly, a Pastor is in the category of teacher and again this is supported in the bible. (And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints…) Again, this is the rank (authority) in church service and in the body of Christ. –and that’s why it’s soooo important for Prophets to be in tune with God. They have great responsibility. God did not give all men authority over a woman. He gave the husband the authority over his wife.
    (Genesis 3:16 …and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.)

    If a woman is a Prophet, Pastor -teacher or whatever and she has a saved husband, she should not be teaching anything that contradicts that which her head (husband) has authorized her to teach. She should teach what he is in agreement with. Therefore, she is not teaching him because he already knows the type of doctrine that is coming from his household. And that’s why it’s important to marry a spouse that is Full of the Holyghost. If you study the original greek as well as the book of genesis you will see that Paul understood this. My Pastor is a man and when he preaches and leads the congregation, he is not teaching us how to be a woman or a man, he’s teaching us how to be God fearing , holy ghost filled Christians. –And the truth is, that’s what any pastor should be teaching, whether they are male or female.

    Furthermore, does God give a women the baptism of the holyghost so that she can sit down and shut up. Cause according to scripture, if we are to take it exactly how we read the silence passages, women shouldn’t sing, say amen, teach, lay hands, etc in church. Not even if it’s towards another female. Because Paul doesn’t say for women to keep silence except for when they are talking to other women. He says let them keep silence period. I truly believe we as Christians have to take the time to really study these Paulinian passages. A man allowing a woman to teach him something knowledgeable, in church, is not a sign that he’s gay. A sign of homosexuality is when a man is full of sexual perversion and has a lust for boys and men. If it were a sign of homosexuality, then a woman allowing a man to teach her would be a sign that she’s a lesbian!?!?!? –And that’s not true.

    Again, Juanita’s deception has nothing to do with the fact that she’s a woman. It has everything to do with the fact that she’s greedy, a false witness, etc. –and this is the case for a whole rack of leaders in the church whether they be male or female. The just simply need to stop misrepresenting Christ.

    Reply
    elder jimmy
    February 24th, 2010 at 11:55 PM
    The greek text actually means that they should “learn in silence.” If they were to be silent they couldn’t pray, sing, give a testimony, prophecy, etc. Paul told the women to pray and prophesy with their heads covered. If he meant that no woman should ever speak, why THAT admonition? The issue of Juanita’s heresy and false profit status is not truly connected to her being a woman. There are more men who are doing what she is doing in greater numbers. Her mentors are the issue is TRUTH not whether or not she is a woman. Even if she was only teaching woman she’d still be a lying profit and a bad example to follow.
    I f a pastor puts a woman up to preach she is not ursurping his authority. The admonition seems to condenm a woman who teaches and usurps authority over men. To SNATCH authority not given based on heretical teaching.
    Paul is also dealing with a cult that promulgated that women were more like GOD because they give life like Him. They believed that they were more spiritual. Paul taught them that women were not superior for GOD man man 1st andf THEN the woman.
    Sorry if I’m on a tangent but I don’t think this post is about whetehr or not she is female but whether or not she is in error and leading others into it.

    Alicia –

    IF we are going to us the old testement for a basis that women can’t be pastors. We must acknowledge the fact that anyone over fifty or under 25, anyone with a handicap, and any foreigner also was denied the position of being priest in the old testiment.

    God bless and keep you IST. Even though I disagree with your stance on this one, you have a wonderful ministry.

    In love,

    Alicia

    • 126 speaking truth April 27, 2010 at 4:06 pm

      Thanks for the comment Alicia – and your well wishes…they are both appreciated. My stance regarding women in ministry is my interpretation of the Word itself (and I am by no means a scholar…just a reader). Also, I’m not clinging to Old Testament interpretation except in providing a basis for New Testament/New Covenant enhancement…otherwise I’d be a proponent of tithing, which I’m certainly against.

      All in all, we must continue to seek God and His Word in these (and all matters) while continually challenging one another to study to show ourselves approved. The end result in our pursuit of God’s truth is far more important than either of us being “right”. Thanks again for the dialogue.


  1. 1 Southern Baptists and a Magazine - Women in the Modern Church « Contemplations of a Young Calvinist Trackback on September 25, 2008 at 11:55 am
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